Virgin pool opener w/ K-2005C test kit & n00b questions

[Jeremiah]

Prior to knowing about this site, I've done a combination of listening to the father-in-law and the instructions on packaging. Then I found this site, and STOPPED what I was doing until I read & understood more and waited for my K-2005C test kit to come in.

My pool:
A bone-like shaped 'kidney' in-ground pool w/ built-in hot-tub by the deep end. It's length is 24' from shallow to deep end x 10' at the narrow middle, and 15' at the wide ends. The pool was left uncovered and 100% un-maintained over the winter. We added gold fish, and that kept the mosquitoes at bay.

Prior to reading this forum: the last 3-4 weeks:
* Added 1 lb of Kem-Teik Stabilizer / Conditioner 99% CYA (20 PPM claimed on bottle for 14'x28' 15,000gal) 3-4 weeks ago S L O W L Y though inlet (and, from the reading I've done, I think washed a lot of it out the next day when rinsing filter)
* Added a half dozen HTH Dual Action hockey pucks (93.5% Trichloro-s-Triazinetrione, 1.5% copper pentahydrate, 84% available chlorine) to skimmer, threw another 3-4 in the pool, and loaded up the floating ducky with 5 pucks. Ducky still has remnants (maybe a puck's worth?), but I JUST pulled him out of the pool and am standing by for instruction on what to do with it.
* Added a shopping cart's worth of bleach (alternating 1.5L and .75L bottles every evening) and running pool overnight almost every night for 2 weeks
* Every night the filter was run, I hosed out the pleats (inside and out) of the cartridge.

This has turned the pool from an army green to a light green with maybe 2' max visibility (I can see the outline of the 2nd step in the shallow end).

Testing:
I went elbow-deep with containers, then inverted to fill - is this the correct method?
CYA: 110 (I did this by the color chart per instructions w/ kit, and not the "drop test" people keep discussing ... am I doing it wrong?)
FC: 10 (had to use 1/2 filtered water & 1/2 pool water to get a reading [5], and multiply that by 2 to get 10)
TC: 5/10?
I had to dilute the solution, so do I multiply my result (5) by 2 as well to get the actual (10?) reading??
CC: 5/0?
PH: 7.3
TA: 150
CH: 270

So, it looks like I'm 3x higher than the 30PPM target for CYA. This concerns me since I'm supposed to be shocking the pool, and the notes on the best guess chart say " at these stabilizer levels, chlorine will drop VERY slowly. This can make the pool unusable for a long period.". Since I'll be in the orange / red zone to reach shock levels, what should I do now?

When dumping out the water from the test kit, can I dump it in the pool, or should it be going elsewhere? I'm getting a foam buildup in my skimmer which makes the skimmer not skim (plenty of water is coming in, but not SURFACE water, and therefore floating debris just floats on by). Do I need to just be diligent about skimming off this foam during this shock phase ... or ??

And - happy father's day everyone!

[Watermom]

Hi Jeremiah and welcome to the forum! Thanks for giving such thorough information about your pool and what all you have done. That will help people to be able to better advise you.

Since your CYA is 110, you'll have to shock up to 25 to kill the algae in your pool. Do you know the volume of the pool? If you tell us that, we can help with dosing amounts for bleach. You'll need to try and test several times a day and each time, take it back up to shock level. Continue to do this until your pool clears and until you can go from sundown one to until sunup the next day without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine. Also run the pump 24/7 and clean the filter as needed.

You did the multiplication right with the dilution method by the way.

Your pH is fine, your alk is a little high but nothing significant and your calcium hardness is ok. (I assume this is NOT a vinyl pool, correct?

No more pucks! Especially the kind you have been using. Dual acting pucks have COPPER in them! We never advise using copper. Contrary to popular belief, it is not chlorine that stains things and turns blonde hair green, it is copper!

You'll need a good test kit if you don't already have one. The one we recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C (same kit, larger bottle of some reagents). If you buy it through the Amazon link in my signature, the Pool Forum makes a little money on the sale which helps us keep this form online. Only buy if the seller is Amato Industries, however. Some other sellers are substituting the K-2005 which you do NOT want. You'll be able to test your CYA using the disappearing black dot test that you have heard about through reading on the forum. We refer to test strips as goofy strips because they really aren't too accurate or a reilable means of testing.

With high CYA, you have two choices.

1. Live with it and run higher than normal cl levels per the Best Guess chart. It is actually ok to do this. As long as you maintain your chlorine within the range of 8-15ppm (after you clear this algae up that is), your pool will be fine. You'll most likely find that you will only have to add bleach every 2 or 3 days. It is safe to swim in a pool with cl levels of 8-15 when the CYA is over 100. It is no different than swimming in 3-6ppm of cl with a CYA of 50. (If you choose option 1 and have to run high cl levels, you MUST buy the kit. It will allow you to test high cl whereas other kits will not.)

2. Other option is to do a partial drain and refill to try and lower the CYA. You do NOT want to totally drain a pool, however or it may pop out of the ground!

Let us know which option is best for you and we'll help you go from there.

As far as where to dump test kit vials after use, I do not dump it in the pool. I just dump it on the ground.

Foaming is usually the result of adding an algaecide. Unless I missed it, I don't see where you mentioned that you added any. Hopefully the high chlorine levels will help to break it down.

Hope this helps. Come back with further questions and also keep us posted on your progress.

[Jeremiah]

Thanks for all the help!

I don't know the volume of my pool, I only know the measurements (see: My Pool above). It's an in-ground concrete pool of some kind, and not vinyl. Is there any particular disadvantage (other than not being able to use my OTO kit) to running high chlorine levels? Will the CYA come down over time to where I can use the readily available OTO kit?

I'll ditch the pucks. Are the 10% liquid chlorine bottles from Home Depot okay? Any thoughts on how much to add to add?

I may have done the drop test then. I mixed up a solution, counted the drops 'till I coulnd't see the black dot, and did the math to get the 110 CYA number posted above. I'm not sure what kit I have. I ordered using the one in your signature (specifically so that this site would get $$$), and my receipt from Amazon says I ordered the K-2006C kit. However, I received the kit from "In The Swim", the box says it's a K-2005C, and the shipping label says it's a AB230???

I've not added algaecide, but I DID add Leslie brand "Ultra Bright" clairifier per Leslie's instructions several weeks ago. My father-in-law (previous owner) claimed this claifier "works wonders" on green pools ... any thoughts?

[Jeremiah]

Looking back, I see where some of the confusion is ... I took bad notes :/ The drop test must be for the CYA (which I did), and the color matching was for the FC/TC/CC and PH tests.

[aylad]

Unfortunately, it looks like they substituted the K-2005 for the K-2006 that you ordered...I would call them and raise some cain--maybe you'll get lucky and they'll offer to swap you for the right one, or at least send you a DPD-FAS that you can use for high chlorine levels. I would point out that the reason you ordered the K-2006 is for the high chlorine measurement, and they've subbed a kit that won't do the same thing. Never hurts to try!!

The foaming is probably the clarifier breaking down. Clarifiers work by making smaller particles stick together so they can either be filtered out through the filter media or drop to the bottom of the pool so they can be vacuumed--they do not kill algae. It takes chlorine to kill algae. The 10% liquid chlorine bottles from HD are fine--but we really need an estimated volume to be able to tell you how much to use. Hopefully one of the construction (or at least geometry) gurus will be by shortly and can give us an estimate.

Your CYA will only come down over time due to splashout or frequent backwashing, but it will be very slow. There really is no disadvantage to running higher chlorine levels, with the exception of the limitations of your kit. I run my CYA at 80-90 on purpose and maintain a high-chlorine pool, since my pool is in full Louisiana sun all day--and I have much less chlorine loss and have to add it less frequently.

Janet

[PoolDoc]

If you used the links from here to order from Amazon, post a complaint and negative rating on Amazon for that seller. That WILL get their attention. Also, if you feel comfortable forwarding the info to me, maybe I can also talk to Amazon, and get this straightened out.

You can email me at poolforum AT gmail DOT com.

ALSO: the CYA test is NOT a drop-count test. Your CYA may be MUCH lower than you think. To do the CYA test, you mix 1/2 pool water with 1/2 CYA regent, shake, wait 1 minute (60 seconds, not 59!), and then fill the tube slowly till the black dot disappears. THEN, you READ your CYA level from the sides of the tubes.

Counting drops has nothing to do with it!

[Jeremiah]

Skip this if you're not interested in the sent-me-the-wrong-kit-drama
I called the customer service line for In The Swim, and had to deal with a nasty little customer service rep who claimed I ordered the wrong kit (according to my Amazon confirmation email and the original receipt, I ordered the K-2006C). When he started becoming curt with me, I asked to speak with someone who was less rude or his supervisor. He continually refused to transfer me. Only after I claimed "I hope to God someone over there is recording your bad attitude, 'cause I sure am, and I'm more than happy to email the MP3 conversation to Amazon" did he reluctantly transfer me to the supervisor he'd previously claimed wasn't there. THAT supervisor was a very pleasant person to talk to, researched my order further, confirmed the error was on their end, and has forwarded the issue to the customer service department who should be calling me back today. So they claim.

Clearly my notes weren't very clear. I just re-ran all my tests, and they're all about the same, EXCEPT for CYA. Forget what I said before about the drop test (I had this test confused with another, now I get it ^.^ ) The first time I ran the test, I counted to 30 (as the box said 30 seconds). This time I used the kitchen timer, and waited 60 full seconds, and I have a CYA of 75. So ... looks like I need to get the chlorine up to 20. Should I just add a bottle, and test ... or am I out of luck until I get the proper test kit? Also ... anyone know why this kit came from In The Swim, and not Amato? I'm concerned Amazon may be diverting some of the sales to alternate vendors?

[PoolDoc]

If you are concerned about PF getting a cut of the sales, don't be -- it's a referral link. PF gets 4% of anything you buy from Amazon, after following that link -- even if it's polka dotted bows for pigs at 4H fairs.

Also, there's nothing nefarious about substitution -- the link I have goes to the Amato K2006, but if they're out, Amazon auto-magically substitutes another seller listing the same item. That would be a good thing (for you), except that . . .

Some of the alternate sellers can't tell the difference between a "5" and a "6", except maybe that the K2005 costs them (the seller) $10 less!

I've spoken to Amato, and she says they've complained to Amazon, but from Amazon's point of view it's one of those icky-picky things that takes more time than it's worth. Since I don't have a phone number for Amazon's seller service dept, I can't do anything.

But . . . if you post negative ratings in the Amazon listing for In The Swim -- don't exaggerate, just tell what happens -- you'll not only get faster correction from ITS, but you'll get Amazon's attention AND the Amazon relations manager at ITS will likely issue a "never-again" order. Those ratings have a BIG impact on sales.

I hope that's kinda clear. It's only somewhat clear to me -- I think Amazon explains this in detail somewhere, but it's probably in the middle of the 20+ agreement pages I signed but didn't read. :(

[CarlD]

even if it's polka dotted bows for pigs at 4H fairs.

I can't tell you how many times I order those things! Now I'll know to go through Ben!

Carl

[Phillbo]

If you are concerned about PF getting a cut of the sales, don't be -- it's a referral link. PF gets 4% of anything you buy from Amazon, after following that link -- even if it's polka dotted bows for pigs at 4H fairs.

(


Good to hear as I was just about to place a very large order for polka dotted pig bows.... and i don't even have pigs.

[Watermom]

By the way, Amato usually restocks pretty fast when they sell out of the kits. I typically click on the Amazon link every day to see if it is available since I am constantly referring people there. There have only been 3 or 4 times so far this season where Amato did not show up as the seller, presumably out of stock. But, every time so far, they have restocked quickly and within a day or so, they are again listed as the seller.

How great is it that anything bought from Amazon (as long as you go through the test kit link) will get some $$$$$ sent to the forum. That is great! I hope people will remember that when they are ordering other things from Amazon besides test kits!

[Jeremiah]

Drama here:
I do purchases @ Amazon a few times a year, so that's good to know. Hopefully I can divert some of my sales to you guys :) I didn't receive a phone call yesterday, so I called this morning. They don't carry the 2006C, so they're sending me a call tag (to pick up this kit) and will give a refund at a future date after this kit is returned. This rep was probably even more snooty than the last one. Maybe it's a West Chicago thing? So ... Looks like I'm re-ordering through Amato ... hopefully.

Between yesterday & last night, I dumped in 3 bottles of 1.4gal bottles in the skimmer, have cleaned the filter every day, and re-ran tests this morning:
TC & FC are off-the-chart
PH: looks like 8, but I'm guessing this could be off-the-chart as well?
TA: 175
CYA: ~70 (about the same as yesterday)

The water doesn't seem any clearer or swimmer friendly. The more bleach I dump in, the more foam I get. I suspect the water filtration system is sucking in air somewhere, as I can see little explosions of bubbles popping a couple feet away from all return lines. Perhaps the chlorine is raising the surface tension of the water, and that's creating foam?

I can dump more bleach in during the day and see what happens, but the wife is now pushing to "Quit dumping money in the pool; just drain the [explative deleted] thing, and start over.". Given it looks like it may be next week before I have the correct test kit, and chemical gremlins seem to be living in my pool, that solution is looking rather attractive. I know you mentioned I could float the pool out of the ground, but if I fill as I drain (or maybe drain 1/4 - 1/8th, fill, repeat), wouldn't that keep my little swamp in the ground?

[Jeremiah]

FYI: Just before giving up and draining the pool, the wife used the Lslie's Ultra Bright Clarifier. It's been working GREAT. Every few hours we need to pull the filter, clean (the filter is feels 2x as heavy when full, it's really picking up a lot of stuff!!!) add more clarifier / repeat. Gone through a whole bottle now, and the pool's turned blue overnight. Just using the last of the bottle now, and I think it'll be perfectly clear after this application. If not, we're going to grab some more, and I'm confident we'll be swimming this afternoon :)

[PoolDoc]

Please, PLEASE do not use more than the label recommends.

I don't know specifically what is is THAT brand of clarifier but the primary chemical in many of them can work in REVERSE if you overdose. So do NOT exceed the label maximum dose.

That's why we don't usually recommend using such products. They *can* help sometimes. But far too often, pool owners operate on the "if a little is good, more is better" theory. And when they do -- with that product and the metal control agents (especially, HEDP) -- you'll think you've died and gone to h. . . . , well, not heaven.