Major Chemistry Problem on open

[psciotti]

Good Morning - glad I found you guys!

Pool: 15120 gallon, 16x28 rectangle, Vinyl Liner, currently water is crystal clear

Opened pool here in the northeast 2 weeks ago and at the time I shocked it with 2 bags of crystal shock. Week later I put 1" tabs into the skimmer and floater thing and have maintained. I have a Leslie DPD test kit and just got the following results which, after reading posts appears to be some major chemistry problem:

FC=0 (even tested with vial only 1/2 full of water and could not get color)
TC=0
PH= much yellower than the 6.8 scale mark
Acid Demand= put in 100 drops and barely a color change
Base Demand= put in 25 drops and turned yellower
TA=put in 2 drops of #7 then 5 drops of #8 - it turned red immediately. Thought I used the wrong chemicals and repeated with the same reults
CH = 650ppm - took 65 drops to change color
Cyanuric Acid = more than the 100 number - probably 120

Is it possible that the test chemicals go bad? I will go buy another test kit today but obviously need to do something.

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Go to Walmart ASAP and

#1 - Buy all the borax they have (up to 12 boxes)
#2 - Buy 10 gallons of plain unscented 6% household bleach.
#3 - Buy a cheap OTO / phenol red test kit
#4 - Go home and test your pool with the kit
#5 - If the results are comparable, starting adding borax: pump on, skimmer basket in place, add slowly through the skimmer.
#6 - Add 6 boxes, wait 1 hour and retest. If no change, add the rest of the boxes, and go back to Walmart for more borax, or if they are out, 5 boxes of "Washing soda" (sodium carbonate = pH up)
#7 - Retest, and if no change, add 6 more boxes of borax or 3 boxes of washing soda.
#8 - Wait 1 hour, and retest. Add 2 more boxes of washing soda if no change.

And, so on.

You need to get the pH up. Low pH kills liners. Use borax if possible, washing soda or pH up if not. Add a gallon of bleach once you have a pH near 7.0.

Post results here.

[psciotti]

thanks - just came back from Target and now wish i bought more Borax and Bleach. I'll do ASAP and followup up with a post later today. Thanks again.

[CarlD]

The OTO test will show if you really have chlorine in your pool or not.
DPD will bleach out at high chlorine levels and give a false value of 0. If the OTO test is clear or very, very soft yellow, then the DPD is correct. However, if the OTO test is strong yellow, orange or brown, the DPD was bleached out and cannot be relied on.

The Borax will raise your pH, and add "borates" to your pool which can make the water feel softer and inhibit algae. But for now it's to get pH up into the 7's range. 20 Mule Team Borax and Arm&Hammer Washing Soda are sold in the laundry section of most supermarkets, especially here in the North East, so you can try them as well. And, of course, they sell bleach.

You need to raise your pH ASAP as vinyl liners can be damaged when pH is below 6.9, so the faster you can get it above that the better--just follow Ben's instructions. The washing soda will add to your Total Alkalinity, but let's get the pH up first--that's far more important.

Meanwhile, you can upgrade your kit to be the full equivalent of the Taylor K-2006 kit we recommend by simply purchasing the Taylor K-1515 kit through Ben's Amazon link above. It's about $20 and is the FAS-DPD test kit that can test FC up to 50 or 100 parts per million, which neither the DPD nor OTO tests can do. I have one of the Leslie's DPD units--it's merely a Taylor re-badged K-2005 kit, which we don't recommend SOLELY because it lacks the FAS-DPD test. But with the K-1515 single FAS-DPD test, you'll have the same thing and will probably never use the DPD test again!

Carl

[psciotti]

ok - 1 hour ago I put in 4 box of Borax (all I had) and 6 gallons of Bleach (I know I was suppose to wait on the bleach until the ph got up but I panicked. Just got back from another trip to buy product and retested water. Results for ph and FC were still non-existent with new test kit - slightly better color to the good side.. Just added another 4 boxes of Borax. total so far 8 boxes of Borax, 6 gals Bleach.

Would adding the initial 6 gallons of bleach have any effect on trying to increase ph at the same time?

Test results in 1 hour from last adds.

Thanks again!

[psciotti]

Just waited about 1.5 hrs and took tests - good and bad news:

FC+TC = 5+ off chart....obviously I put to much bleach in
PH = 7.2 range
TA = at least the initial drops formed a green color this time....100 + drops of #9 could not change to red??
CA = still approx 120+

I'm thinking of adding 1 more box of Borax and checking tonight or in the morning giving the FC/TC level time to subside. Not sure what to do with the TA/CA levels but I guess I'll ignore for now until TC and PH stay in control.
I'll continue to circulate with pump and keep pool rover on to circulate the bottom of water.

Thanks

[Watermom]

Ummm, yeah, I think you overdid the bleach a little. Adding 12 gallons to a pool with this volume would have added approximately 48ppm of chlorine! :eek::eek: I hope your liner isn't toast!

Obviously, don't add any more bleach for awhile. As Carl said, you do ultimately need to get a good kit. As a temporary measure only, you can use a dilution method to force your current kit to read higher readings than 5ppm. More info about that here:

http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html

I'm assuming by CA you mean CYA? If so, then your CYA is really high. I'm assuming that you have been using trichlor pucks for quite a while, maybe even for several seasons? They cause CYA to build up over time and that is how people get CYA levels like you have. The only way to lower it is to do a partial drain and refill but you do NOT want to totally drain a pool. Your other option is to keep the high CYA and just run higher than normal chlorine levels. Take a look at the Best Guess chart in my signature below for more info. At any rate, NO more pucks in this pool or dichlor shock. Both of these are stabilized forms of chlorine which will continue to add CYA and that is something you do not want.

Hope this info helps. By the way -- welcome to the Pool Forum.

[CarlD]

Probably the worst that will happen to your liner is it will be bleached. Beyond that, probably little chance of damage....but don't do that with Muriatic Acid ever or it WILL melt your liner.

Carl

[psciotti]

Thank you all - actually I only added 6 - 1.4 gal containers so not too bad I guess beyond just basically shocking it again. The other problem that arose after fixing the PH and adding the bleach is a VERY cloudy pool. Will this clear up as the TC/FC comes down?

[Watermom]

The cloudiness is not caused by the bleach. Probably from all the Borax that you have put in, (which was a major necessity!) combined with high calcium hardness.

I assume you had been using cal-hypo for a long while in addition to the trichlor pucks? NO more of either at this point.

Let the chlorine drift down and keep it between 8-15 all the time. With a CYA that high, if it dips below 8, you risk an algae bloom.

Run the pump 24/7 right now.

[psciotti]

thank you for all the help much appreciated....I'll post back in a day or 2.

[psciotti]

AARRGGHH! This is very frustrating! The PH level has again gone down below where I can read it... below 6.8. I tried with a 1/2 full vial on the test and it barely looked like it was 7 - interpolating I'm guessing a ph in the 3-4 range. I know I have to bring immediately but how do I stop it from dropping so quick?

I'm thinking of dumping about 1/4 of the water (I can only do this much with running into issues) and refilling with clean water and starting from scratch. Normally I would not care how long this took but I have a graduation party next weekend and I need it clear by then..ph or not at this point.

Does dumping water make sense?

thanks

[PoolDoc]

Dumping 1/4 of your water won't make or break your situation. To FIX thing by dumping and refilling, you'd have to do 3/4 or more AND have high quality fill water.

At this point, where we've at least hit a higher level of pH, I think if you simply run your filter 24/7 and add borax every couple of hours, 1/2 box at a time, you may be able to do fine. Do not clean your filter too much -- watch for the pressure increase on the gauge, and do not clean till you've seen pressure go up 4# above whatever the pressure was when the filter was clean.

One more thing: can you test your tap water, or whatever water you fill your pool with? We need to get a handle on how all that calcium got into your pool in the first place. If we don't figure that out, we can't really resolve your problem, since it's likely happen again.

[psciotti]

Makes sense what you say. Just very frustrated when I look out at pool and the water looks horrible and knowing I have 5 days to get this somewhat presentable. I will continue down this road and cross my fingers. I will test the tap water tomorrow and get back to you all.

Possibly the high calcium and high acid level might be from the 1" quick dissolving tabs I used for a couple of weeks or possibly from all the rain and pollen we have had here in the northeast. I opened the pool initially to an almost overflowing water level between the snow melt and rain. Either way I'm sure it will clear up sooner or later....hopefully sooner.

Thanks again for all the help!

[PoolDoc]

M. Just very frustrated when I look out at pool and the water looks horrible . . . . .

Possibly the high calcium and high acid level might be from the 1" quick dissolving tabs I used for a couple of weeks

I understand the frustration. The danger is, and we see this a LOT, that your frustration will drive you to "JUST DO SOMETHING" expensive and often useless that sometimes even makes things worse! Pool stores live for those moments in pool owner's lives, because they add immensely to the profit margins (and most pool stores aren't doing all that well, thanks to salt systems).

Regarding the 1" tabs, can you look on the label, and see what the chemical ingredient in those tabs is?

[psciotti]

Will do when I get home from work. PH was at around 6 this am after adding 1/2 box borax last night at 10:30. Added another 1/2 box this am and will continue to watch it (water still very cloudy). FC/TC still way up there - that's a mistake I won't make again. Like Watermom said I bleached out my liner a bit and caused a brown stain on my fiberglass steps.

Would any of these issues have any affect on pool chemistry:

- My "flooded compressor" issue with my heater - http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?12233-Flooded-Pool-Heater-Compressor - (sorry don't know how to just copy the header link). Could I be leaking some kind of heater chemical?

- The sand in the sand filter has not been changed since pool was new - going on 9th season

- old Nature 2 cartridge system (with old cartridge in) still tied into flow?

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

Would any of these issues have any affect on pool chemistry:


Yes.

+ The compressor could add oil to the pool. If have a heater bypass, open it and close the pipes to the heater.
+ Sand doesn't 'wear out' but it can clump up. Most often, however, it gets blown out of the backwash by mismatched pumps, and needs to be replenished. You should check it, after 9 years.
+ With your pH levels, it would add LOTS of copper. Remove the cartridge . . . and don't buy another one. ;)

[psciotti]

Just had son check the ph and it's hovering right at 6.8 so I told him to add another 1/2 box borax and check again at 12. At least the ph has stabilized. I am going to by pass the heater since it doesn't work at this point anyway but no bypass I'll have to do some reconnects. As far as the Nature 2 thing it came with the pool and I have never bought another but I will take it out of the system too when I get a chance. How do you add copper and what purpose does it serve? I wish i paid more attention in chemistry class all those years ago!

Thanks

[PoolDoc]

+ Copper kills algae and causes stains.
+ Low pH dissolves it out of Nature2 cartridges, but if you want to know more use the PF customs search (link in my sig) to search for "Nature2"
+ Chemistry classes would help less than you think -- my older son is graduating honors with a Biology degree and Chem minor -- he LOVED organic chemistry -- and my younger son completed honors high school chem with a 97 on his final, and when I ask them stuff, they are both constantly saying stuff like, "Dad, we didn't study THAT!"

[psciotti]

I am pulling my hair out and there is not a lot of that left...all my readings are off my chart or even a best guess level. The pool is completely turquoise color. I do not want to put another thing in this pool until I can get accurate readings. I can't even do basic math anymore it's so upsetting. Since all the colors are off the chart if I use a 1/2 full vial with the Leslie DPD kit do I use the same amount of chem drops and either double (or 1/2 for ph) the readings??

When I backwash it is a total turquoise discharge.... in my head I'm thinking that maybe my ph is actually sky high and adding the borax is actually making it worse. Right now I turned up the two jets and I am getting small, what appear to be soap type bubbles on the surface.

All this when I had crystal clear water 3 days ago but a non-existent ph level...... AARRGGHH!

[psciotti]

Just checked the bag on the Pool Rover and it is picking up aqua colored - what I can only assume is - excess borax on the bottom of the pool. I switched to the fine collection bag - we'll see. Off the buy more chem reagents since I've tested and experimented so much I've run out.

Isn't life supposed to get easier when you turn 50!

[PoolDoc]

I just checked to see if your phone number was in your registration, but it wasn't. So, I'll go at it here.

I've seen aqua or turquoise backwash sediment from a filter a number of times. In every case I've seen it, there was one key factor: dissolved copper. I hadn't really connected this thread with your heater thread, except in a vague way, till just now.

What's likely happening is that your low pH water had dissolved massive amounts of copper into your water, from your heater and possibly also from your Nature2 units. Now, as your pH comes up, your copper is coming out, possibly as calcium carbonate, since your calcium is so high. This is the best possible outcome.

It COULD come out as copper oxide, and turn your liner BLACK!

Given this apparent monster copper level, let's modify what you are doing somewhat:
#1 - Until the copper is gone, never, NEVER add more than 1/2 gallon of bleach at a time; do NOT let your chlorine get above 2 ppm!
#2 - Find (probably at a pool store) a couple of quarts of polyquat (see www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat ) and start using it, 2x per week.
#3 - Continue adding borax, but no more than 1/2 box at a time.
#4 - Continue to run your filter and pump 24/7.

You've kinda 'gone off the reservation' a couple of time; let me encourage you to stick to the plan, if you want to have any hope of saving your liner. Your pool's pH must have been very, very low for this to happen.

And, yes, extremely low pH plus extremely high copper would give you very clear water. But it's also destroyed your heater, and is likely to destroy your liner.

Your pool is sorta like a guy I knew who went for a checkup, only to find that he had advanced cancer. He was all "but, Dr, I feel fine!", to which the doctor essentially replied, "Maybe, but you are dying", and proceeded to make him really, really sick by treating him with chemo.

Your pool "looked fine", but it was being destroyed rapidly. It may still be destroyed. Extremely low pH, like you must have had, is about the worst thing you can do to a pool. Doesn't usually hurt people, but it 'kills' pools. What's we've done since simply has revealed the serious problem that was there before. The damage is apparent now, but was actually done days or weeks ago. Sorry to deliver such discouraging info, but there's no way to fix things without facing the reality. There's a small chance you can get the pool usable by this weekend, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Draining and refilling might be faster. But I'm just not sure how your liner will do -- a drain and refill stresses a liner, and yours might not survive. I wish I had some magic bullets for you, but I don't.

Best wishes,

[psciotti]

OUCH! I hear what your saying. Don't have the facility to dump the pool without calling a septic company to come pump it so I'll go with the flow and see what happens. First thing tomorrow I'll take the heater offline. The chlorine level is still high due to the bleach fiasco but it is settling. I just tested the water and a few questions:

Readings:

Pool-
FC= 8-10 range ... off DPD chart but not to far (I did order the FAS kit)
TC= slightly higher maybe 10-12
PH= 7.2
TA= Only turned pale yellow - even after 30 drops
CYA= approx 120ppm

Checked fill water-
FC= .25
TC= .5
PH= 7.2
TA= 120ppm
CYA= 0

The 1" quick dissolving tabs I was using prior to switching to BBB were Trichloro-s-Triazinetrione= 99%

What would cause the TA test to turn pale yellow and never red?
It appears that the pool water can't absorb anymore Borax as there is a small amount of residual on the pool floor picked up by my Rover - should I continue to keep the PH up with it?
Would it make sense to dump say 30-50% of the water or is it all or none?
Lastly - how do I change my profile, it says I can't access?

Thank you all for the help - even if it's bad news. If nothing else it is a lesson learned for the future.

[psciotti]

I know this is getting old...even for myself. At this point I could teach a whole class on what not to do!

Water (fingers crossed) actually looks like it's heading in right direction. I can see my Rover in the low end and down the slope.

FC=5+ (not far off)
TC=8-10
PH= 7
TA= Still will only turn pale yellow?? Bizarre
CYA= 120

Took the heater and Nature2 out of the flow.

We'll see

[PoolDoc]

I wouldn't worry too much about the TA right now. Focus on getting your pH to stay above 7.2.

And, if you haven't added polyquat, DO SO TODAY.

Because copper may still be present, we can't (shouldn't) run the chlorine up high again. But because it may NOT be present, we can't count on it to control the algae. You can use polyquat to bridge the gap, and keep your pool algae free while we get rid of the copper. It will ALSO help you filter stuff out, like the debris you're having.

Borax note: borax can be slow to dissolve, but your pool water will hold WAY more borax than you have added. If it's borax, vacuum it up, and it will dissolve. If it's not borax, vacuum it up and then clean your filter.

[psciotti]

I'm almost there.... the water has cleared about 75%! I just did a water reading and questions:

FC = 5+
TC = 8-10 range
TA = almost turning red

PH = 8.2++ PH has spiked and it even turned blue in the vial after a minute. Should I let it alone or work it back?

Also, the Polyquat for maintenance on my pool (15150 gal) is 6oz 1x per week. At $21 per quart do you think I can go with 4oz the 2x per week you mentioned? Thinking this because my FC/TC is still high.

Thank you again, and again, and again

[PoolDoc]

Hi Psciotti;

Glad it's looking better, but don't relax yet.

+ Continue letting your chlorine drop, but not below 1.0 at any time.
+ 4oz 2x a week is OK, as long as there's no sigh of algae.
+ See what the pH is tomorrow; try to get it below 8.0 -- I'm afraid of any remaining copper coming out and staining things.

Once your pH is normal, and your copper seems to be gone, we'll have to work out how you're going to run with high CYA. There are two choices. You can run high chlorine, which requires a DPD-FAS testkit (sorry, maybe you've gotten one -- I forget) OR you can run 5 - 10 ppm chlorine PLUS small doses of sodium bromide to create a free bromine residual.

[psciotti]

Don't think I will relax till after this weekend. Between the pool and the rest of the to do list I'm a busy bee. Anyway, this am we are at 90% clear and the water is testing out pretty good

FC - 5+ but looking slightly better
PH - 8
TA - 120+- finally hit a light red color on drop #12... no more yellow
CYA - 120+-

I'll continue to watch it like a hawk - now is there something I can shoot into the atmosphere to guarantee sunshine?

Thanks for all the help and BTW you must be very proud of the accomplishments of your 2 boys - obviously the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I have one on his way to college in the spring on scholarship (hence the grad party) and 2 great kids behind him. ~ Thanks Again

[PoolDoc]

Hope your weekend goes well!