Metal Free or Not

[Firecat]

My water tested low for PH at the pool store, the guy told me to add Metal Free before adding the soda ash because I have a heater and there will be copper in the water even though I told him I have a heat pump with a titanium heat exchanger(Aquacal H120). He then tested for copper and the dip strip showed fine, he was still convinced there would be copper in the water and the soda ash would not be able to work with it in there.

I am not sure if there is any copper in the heat pump that comes into contact with the water, only thing that might have copper is a spigot on my homemade solar heater to drain it for winter but that is probably brass.

Should I add the Metal Free before I start to add the soda ash to raise the PH?

-Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

The problem is not that the soda ash won't work if copper is present; the problem is that the soda ash will tend to change any metals present from a soluble (non-staining) to an insoluble (stains, colors, clouds) form.

If your pool's pH got really low, putting the Metal Free in is not necessarily a bad idea. It's essentially just a precaution, since really low pH tends to grab ANY metal it can find. Then, when you raise the pH, it drops it out all over your pool.

If you've got a vinyl liner pool with no exposed metals but stainless ladders and a titanium heat exchanger, my guess is you are good to go. Otherwise, if there is metal somewhere (mineral product, etc.) you might want to use the Metal Free and THEN run your pump 24/7 for the next 2 weeks, so that as the Metal Free breaks down, and the metals are released, they land on your filter rather than your pool walls.

BTW, I'd use a 1/2 dose of the Metal Free, and add more if there's any sign of discoloration.

Also, use 20 Mule Team borax rather than soda ash -- it's cheaper, less likely to cause problems with metals, and better for your pool. If your pH is way low, use 3 boxes per 10,000 gallons added SLOWLY to the skimmer with the skimmer basket in place and the pump running. Wait at least 2 hours and retest before adding more. Otherwise, 1 box every 10,000 gallons every 4 hours.

Finally, if you 'dump' a box in the pool's deep end, and watch for color change, if will give you some idea if metals may be present.

Ben

[waterbear]

I would not use Metal free since it is EDTA based. If you are going to use a metal seqeustrant use one that is HEDP based such as Jack's Magic Pink or Blue Stuff or Proteam Metal Magic.

[Firecat]

The problem is not that the soda ash won't work if copper is present; the problem is that the soda ash will tend to change any metals present from a soluble (non-staining) to an insoluble (stains, colors, clouds) form.

If your pool's pH got really low, putting the Metal Free in is not necessarily a bad idea. It's essentially just a precaution, since really low pH tends to grab ANY metal it can find. Then, when you raise the pH, it drops it out all over your pool.

If you've got a vinyl liner pool with no exposed metals but stainless ladders and a titanium heat exchanger, my guess is you are good to go. Otherwise, if there is metal somewhere (mineral product, etc.) you might want to use the Metal Free and THEN run your pump 24/7 for the next 2 weeks, so that as the Metal Free breaks down, and the metals are released, they land on your filter rather than your pool walls.

BTW, I'd use a 1/2 dose of the Metal Free, and add more if there's any sign of discoloration.

Also, use 20 Mule Team borax rather than soda ash -- it's cheaper, less likely to cause problems with metals, and better for your pool. If your pH is way low, use 3 boxes per 10,000 gallons added SLOWLY to the skimmer with the skimmer basket in place and the pump running. Wait at least 2 hours and retest before adding more. Otherwise, 1 box every 10,000 gallons every 4 hours.

Finally, if you 'dump' a box in the pool's deep end, and watch for color change, if will give you some idea if metals may be present.

Ben



Thanks, I have started that regimen yesterday. I need to get more Borax because Walmart only had two, so I added those today. I do have a liner pool.

I will report back with how it works out.

Thanks, again.

[Firecat]

I would not use Metal free since it is EDTA based. If you are going to use a metal seqeustrant use one that is HEDP based such as Jack's Magic Pink or Blue Stuff or Proteam Metal Magic.

I will look into that but it is too late as I added some yesterday before I saw this post. Thanks for the info though.

[Firecat]

Ok, I put 24 lbs of Borax in the pool over the past couple days and the PH is the same. I just went to the pool store to have them check it too and its 7.0. They now suggest getting the Alkalinity up first to stabilize the PH, then add more Soda Ash (Borax is what I am using) The Alkalinity is at 0, so they sold me Alkalinity Up and suggest adding 10 lbs now and probable 10 more after I get the PH up.

I just wasted 24 lbs of Borax it seems, I need to learn the protocol to getting my water adjusted and not rely on the sales people at the pool store.

I have a 20,000 gallon liner pool.

Thanks alot.

[waterbear]

You have not wasted the borax. Many people add borax to 50 ppm because of it's agaestatic and pH stabilizing properties. If your TA is 0 PPM you need to RETURN THE ALKALINITY INCREASER TO THE POOL STORE and but the same amount of baking soda and add that. Here is a hint Total alkalinity increaser is baking soda. Read the package, It will say either sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydrogen carbonate, both are just other names for ordinary baking soda!

[Firecat]

So is there anything else I need to adjust before adding the Alkalinity Up or Baking Soda? Or is that the place to start?

[PoolDoc]

Probably, you need a test kit.

The chance that your alkalinity is "0" after 24 lbs of borax is small; the chance that your dealer's testing is seriously wrong is large. You already have accumulated quite a bit of evidence suggesting that your dealer does not test water reliably. If you keep trying to treat your pool based on test values that are quite likely bogus, you'll end up doing a lot to help your dealer's bottom line, but little to help your pool.

Add more borax, till your pH is 7.2 on a cheap drops based testkit, but order a Taylor K2006 or equivalent. Lamotte's kit is fine, but much more expensive. Just be sure to get an FAS-DPD complete kit -- there's an Amazon link in my signature. It's showing "US General" as the seller right now. That's probably OK, but "Amato Ind" does ship the correct kit. Most likely, they'll be back on Amazon by Monday or Tuesday.

[Firecat]

I had a test kit from before and was using it but it was old so I bought a new one yesterday, it says Leslies, the pool store name, but inside is says it is a Taylor, it is just for chlorine and ph though. Maybe I should try a different store to test for the other levels or maybe I should buy a more involved test kit. I am unemployed right now so every dollar saved is in my best interest.

Should I add baking soda or just keep with the Borax for now? I will try to return the Alkalinity Up but I just returned the PH increaser and he said he would do it just the one time because of OSHA regs. I will tell him they have not been giving me good advice from the start and I wish to take my business elsewhere.

The TA test is the little electric meter that has a small cup on it?

Thanks.

[waterbear]

Probably, you need a test kit.



I would say you DEFINITELY need a test kit. Get yourself a Taylor K-2006 and start testing your own water.

[Firecat]

I ordered the good test kit from amazon so from here on out I will be in charge of what is going in my pool, with your help of course :)

I added up what I have put into my pool in the past week or so and it is 16lbs of Baking Soda and 32 lbs of Borax and the PH has not increased.

I am still waiting on the new test kit but the new one from the store shows no change in PH.

I plan to add more borax today.

Anything I am overlooking or do I need to do more reading (research), I thought I had it figured out but this seems like alot of chemicals with no change.

[PoolDoc]

Again, it's not likely that your pH hasn't changed. What is possible is that your pH is so low that your existing test kit can't measure the change.

Do this:

#1 - Do a pH test again. Presumably, it will turn yellow, which with phenol red is 6.5 or LOWER. Add a tiny pinch of borax to the test chamber. The water should turn purple or at least red. That verifies that everything is working.
#2 - Add around 23 more pounds of borax - 5 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax -- which may or may not raise your pH enough, but will put you firmly in the 'good zone' for borates.
#3 - Retest. If your pH is STILL not high enough, buy some Arm and Hammer WASHING soda (not baking soda). Here, locally, it's right next to the borax in Walmart. Add 2 boxes at a time, wait 2 hours, and retest. Drop back to 1/2 box at the first sign of pH change.

(Follow Waterbear's advice on the Metal Free)

[Firecat]

Tomorrow I will go out and try to hunt down some Borax, 2 Meijers and 1 Walmart are out by me.

I did pick up some washing soda though, can I just use that instead of the Borax? Or is there a reason to use the Borax?

I did get my water test kit today and tried it out, looks like your recommendation for the amount of Borax is about spot on.

Just need to get the PH up to stop the chlorine from burning out at a rediculous rate.

[Watermom]

Reread post #13 point #3. Ben tells you there to use Washing Soda. Good to hear that you got your kit! That will make this a lot easier for you. BTW -- the pH has nothing to do with the chlorine consumption.

Keep us posted how you things are going!

[Firecat]

Ok, I did not know to use the washing soda in place of the borax but I did find 4 boxes today so when that runs out I will continue with the washing soda. I thought I had read that PH stabilizes the chlorine so it does not fade out so fast, I am learning and open minded so please teach me the correct ways.

Thanks alot.

-Jay