Time to replace sand?

[Watermom]

If anyone knows of way I can do this more accurately before my Amazon shipment arrives - please let me know. What a bad time to run out of reagent!!

John

Nothing else to do. Just have to wait on that kit.

Are you testing and dosing every couple of hours today?

[jonno]

Yes. Here are today's results through of 3pm (weather here in Maryland is sunny, mid-80s, low humidity, light breeze)

8:30a FC 17.5, CC 1.5 - added .3 gal bleach (using Taylor K-2006) - increased FC by 1.5
11:30a TC between 18 and 25 - added .7 gal bleach (using old kit because I ran out of titrating reagent) - increased FC by 3.5
1:30p TC 25ish - nothing added
3:00p TC between 18 and 25 - added .7 gal bleach to be on the safe side - increased FC by 3.5

I will test TC again in an hour or so. My bleach is 12.5% so each gal should be upping the ppm by 4.8.

[Watermom]

Also, watch the filter pressure. Backwash when the pressure rises 5-10 psi over clean filter pressure. Run the pump 24/7. Looking any better yet? Keep at it.

[jonno]

I been checking the filter daily, but haven't backwashed in over a week because it was only up 3 lbs. After reading your post I decided I'd better backwash and, wow! what nasty stuff came out - green foam and very dirty water.

After backwashing and rinsing, the filter pressure settled back to 16 lbs, and I noticed the ripple on the water is a bit stronger (the return is pointed upwards for aerating). I have some Fibre Clear - should I put a few handfuls down the skimmer (until the psi increases 1 lb) to improve the filtering efficiency?

Around 5:30p the shotglass test result was between 3 and 5 (15ppm to 25ppm) so I added another .8 gal of bleach. I retested about 30 minutes after adding the bleach and it was a definate 5 (25 ppm).

I'll test again at 8pm this evening and dose as needed to bring it back up to 25ppm. Tomorrow is a work day, but I'll treat it at 8am, sneak home for lunch and again around 6p. With the filter newly backwashed, I'm hoping for improvement on water clarity.

By the way, I've seen in other posts that some pool owners have problems with their pump being too strong for the size of their sand filter. I don't think that is true for me, but here's the info. I put a new pump on in May because the old one had burned out. Same HP (3/4) and brand (Hayward) but the new pump is a Super II model. It is stronger than the old once as the psi through a freshly backwashed filter is 16 while the old pump was around 12. The connections on the pump are 2" but I have them stepped down to 1 1/2" to fit the rest of the piping. The multiport is rated 125 GPM, the filter capacity is 275 lbs of sand. The new pump is rated with a maximum output of 63 GPM at 40 ft of head (down to 31 GPM at 70 ft of head). My pump is below the level of the pool, about even with the bottom of the deep end. There's about 15 feet of pipe back to the return - so I'm guessing the pump performance output is its full capacity of 63 GPM. Do you think that the pump size is reasonable for my filter and set up?

Thanks again.

[Watermom]

Don't add the Fiber Clear. I don't know what that is and you don't anything else that might contribute to the problem. Instead, try adding some DE to your sand filter like many of us do. It may help. Read more about it at the following link. Be aware that you may not see the rise in pressure immediately. It usually takes about a half hour in my pool to see it. So, don't add too much DE. If you overshoot, backwash it out and try again.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3742

The pump size sounds reasonable to me but one of the equipment gurus will hopefully chime in if they see a problem with your setup.

Keep up the frequent testing and adding bleach. I know it is a pain, but eventually your pool is going to be fun and not so much work!

Also, do me a favor. In your signature, please put that you have a Taylor K-2006. We help so many people in so many threads that it gets time consuming to have to scroll back over and over to look to see who has what. That will be a big help and a time-saver if you can do that.

[jonno]

Thanks Watermom. TC was still 25ppm at the 8pm reading so no dose of bleach at nightfall. I'll see what the TC is in the morning and report on the level, dose, and water clarity.
(Note: I'm using the shotglass method to measure TC with OT chlorine test until my R-0871 refill arrives later this week.)

Watermom wrote:
Don't add the Fiber Clear. I don't know what that is and you don't anything else that might contribute to the problem.
I found the a couple references to Fiber Clear in this forum from about 5 years ago - http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?4998-Fiber-Clear-Water-Polish-for-sand-filters.
Oh, and here is the MSDS for Fiber Clear http://www.fiberclear.net/images/msds_091405.pdf.

Even so, I agree that I don't want to add any variables, so I'll pick up some DE tomorrow.

[jonno]

Water is much clearer this morning - I can see the pattern on the shallow end bottom and can see the dark head of the leaf scoop when it is at the bottom of the deep end.
TC was slightly lighter than the 5 level (5 OT = 25 ppm) using the OT kit and the shotglass method so I added 1 gal of 12.5% bleach. As I swept the bottom and walls, plumes of dead algae rose up ahead of the brush in most areas - but the layer was thin enough so that the "just brushed" swath was not distinguishable from the "not yet brushed" area. In days past, the sweeping would leave a obviously cleaner swath as I brushed.

I'm trickling more water into the pool so I can backwash this evening or tomorrow. Haven't been able to test pH or TA due to the high chlorine level. I'll be back at noon to test again. Sky is overcast and drizzling.

[jonno]

Yay! The titrating reagent refill was on my front porch when I came home from lunch so I was able to do a real FC test.

FC 31.5, so no bleach added.
CC 0.0

I arranged for another family member to test the FC again at 4p and I'll test once more around 6:30p when I get home.

John

[jonno]

Three titrating tests starting at noon today. Before that I had to use the shotglass method and it was a guess at best.
The water is still cloudy, but I can see the bottom.

1pm
FC 31.5
CC 0.0

4pm
FC 28.5
CC not tested

7pm
FC 27.0
CC 1.5

I'll test again tomorrow morning and see if the FC has held within 1 ppm. If it is below 25ppm, I'll add bleach. If it is 25 or higher, I think the plan is to stop adding bleach let the FC drift down to 15 (it may take a day or two), then test pH and TA. Then (dare I ask it?) will it be swim time?

[Watermom]

But...... if you still have a CC reading greater than 0.5, you still have to maintain the high cl. Sorry to have to tell you that. Since your FC didn't drop much during that time period, I'm hoping the CC reading may be is just testing error.

[jonno]

This morning the FC was 19ppm, down from 27ppm from 12 hours before. Also the CC was 1.0 so I'm still on the program. Added 1.3 gallons of 12.5% bleach to bring it back to 25 ppm.

I have someone to check it every two hours today and keep it at 25 and will see how it looks tomorrow. The water is quite clear - not crystal yet, but I can see the seams in the vinyl even in the deep end. I feel like this is home stretch and I'm not going to rush it. Thanks!

[Watermom]

I feel like this is home stretch and I'm not going to rush it. Thanks!

That's right. Don't rush it. Sometimes this is the point where people mess up. They get so tired of messing with it and it looks good so they think that they are finished and quit too soon. And, guess what? It's only a matter of a couple of days and they are right back where they started and ready to cry.

Hang in there. You're almost there!

[jonno]

Thanks for the encouraging words, they really help. I'll keep the FC at 25ppm until it holds within 1ppm overnight and the CC is no more than 0.5.

I've been keeping everyone out of the pool and will do so until this is done, but when I looked at the Best Guess chart, it looks like a quick dip might be okay and the high FC would pose no danger to the swimmer (although designer swim suits and dyed hair might lighten). However, I don't know if the pH and TA levels need to be considered. Several days ago, when I last measured pH (before I was keeping the FC so high) it was 7.2 and the TA was 170.

Watermom - What do you or the other experts think - stay out of the pool or allow a quick dip? (Of course, I would be sure an hour or so had passed since the last bleach addition).

So far today the readings are:
7:30a FC 19.0 (added bleach), CC 1.0
10a FC 25.0
Noon FC 21.5 (added bleach)
4p FC 23.5 (added bleach), CC between 0.5 and 1.0

I'll test again when I get home and post the overnight numbers.

[Watermom]

Maybe a quick dip before the next dose of bleach with an old swimsuit that you don't care if it fades. The TA and pH readings won't hurt anything.

EDIT -- Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination!

[jonno]

This morning's numbers showed that the FC dropped 3.5 overnight (from 26.0 to 22.5) and the CC was 2.5. This means I need to stay in the shock phase and continue testing every two hours to keep the FC at 25. I added .7 gallons this morning. Water clarity is almost sparkling - I can't believe it's the same pool. Almost there...

[CarlD]

Don't give up now! CYA still over 100ppm?
When the FC is down, since the CC is below 1, a quick dip in an old suit shouldn't hurt.
What is your pH? (I realize it will appear elevated).

Carl

[jonno]

Carl, et al, - Here are my 10am readings.
FC 25 (7:15am was 22.5 so added .7 gal of 12.5% bleach at that time)
CC 0 (7:15am was 2.5)
pH 7.6 (reading elevated from high FC)
Someone is testing for me while I'm at work -- every 2 hours and adding bleach to keep the FC at 25. I'll test the CYA tonight.

The signs of progress are amazing! The photos tell the story...

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/jyellott/GreenDay1-19.jpg
From opening day, 5/29/11, through 6/9/11 the water was Mountain Dew green with visibility about six inches (my hand would disappear before the water got near my elbow).

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/jyellott/PoorVisibility.jpg
On 6/11/11, the pool store prescribed "Green to Clean" - it turned the water blue (killed the algae), but visibility was unchanged. This product just made things worse (see earlier posts).

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/jyellott/0_IMAGE_162.jpg
I joined this forum on 6/13/11. The water was a mess. This was taken on 6/22, mid-way through the bleach treatment. The algae made a comeback, but visibility was improving.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t187/jyellott/0_IMAGE_164.jpg
As of this morning - the water has a sparkle to it. Seams and design are clearly visible on the very bottom of the deep end. The water probably isn't CRYSTAL clear yet, but to tell you the truth, it's been so long, I'm not sure I remember - every day it keeps getting better. Wow!

This forum (and the people behind it) is great! I know it is basic chemistry and POPP, but it seems like magic - thank you all!

[CarlD]

Getting the sparkle is easy...just put a little DE in the filter via the skimmer, enough so the pressure goes up 1psi (add about 1/3 cup at a time till you get there), then put a skimmer sock in the skimmer. In NO time the water will sparkle again! Mine does and I have a 200# sand filter.

Carl

[jonno]

Thanks Carl. I put a little DE in the skimmer and installed a skimmer sock. Looking even better than this morning.
7pm Test Results are:
FC 25.5
CC 1.5
pH 7.5
TA 180
CYA - black dot disappears well before the 100 mark.
pH and TA numbers may be off due to high FC ppm.

[jonno]

Carl, Watermom, Janet, or Ben -
I have a question about the timing of taking an end-of-day FC test and when to take it the next morning. To end the shock phase, I know I want a FC that loses no more than 1ppm overnight, but when does "overnight" start and end? From reading other posts, I thought the last test of the day can be taken whenever the sun is off the pool and the first test the next morning is to be within two hours of sunrise.

This evening, I did a test at 7pm and the FC was 25.5. I thought that was late enough to be my final test. Out of curiousity, I tested again 3 hours later at 10pm and was surprised that the FC dropped 4ppm (from 25.5 to 21.5). I added almost a gallon of bleach to bring it back to 25ppm, but this got me wondering.

Here're my questions:

Why did the FC drop so much between 7p and 10p?
Is it because the FC is still fighting nasties in the water? The CC at 10p was 1.5, so I think this also is a clue that the shock level of bleach is still needed.
The sun didn't actually set until 8:38p tonight - could the UV rays hitting the pool indirectly between 7p and 8:38p also have contributed to the drop in FC?
The water is so invitingly clear, how many more days should I be prepared to continue frequent testing and keeping the FC at shock level (i.e., 25ppm)?

Sorry to be hounding you with so many questions - I'm curious about the chemistry and I've also got several eager swimmers attracted to the sparkling water.

[jonno]

6:40a FC 23.0 and CC 1.0 - will continue testing and topping to 25ppm today.

[Watermom]

Carl, Watermom, Janet, or Ben -
I have a question about the timing of taking an end-of-day FC test and when to take it the next morning. To end the shock phase, I know I want a FC that loses no more than 1ppm overnight, but when does "overnight" start and end? From reading other posts, I thought the last test of the day can be taken whenever the sun is off the pool and the first test the next morning is to be within two hours of sunrise.

This is correct.


This evening, I did a test at 7pm and the FC was 25.5. I thought that was late enough to be my final test. Out of curiousity, I tested again 3 hours later at 10pm and was surprised that the FC dropped 4ppm (from 25.5 to 21.5). I added almost a gallon of bleach to bring it back to 25ppm, but this got me wondering.

Here're my questions:

[1]Why did the FC drop so much between 7p and 10p?
[2]Is it because the FC is still fighting nasties in the water? The CC at 10p was 1.5, so I think this also is a clue that the shock level of bleach is still needed.
[3]The sun didn't actually set until 8:38p tonight - could the UV rays hitting the pool indirectly between 7p and 8:38p also have contributed to the drop in FC?
[4]The water is so invitingly clear, how many more days should I be prepared to continue frequent testing and keeping the FC at shock level (i.e., 25ppm)?

Sorry to be hounding you with so many questions - I'm curious about the chemistry and I've also got several eager swimmers attracted to the sparkling water.

1. Your statement in #2 answers it.
2. Yes.
3. I don't know. I wouldn't think the sun at that late hour would be strong enough to cause much chlorine loss, but why don't you wait a little later tomorrow evening before testing.
4. Hopefully not too much longer. Keep your fingers crossed for sometime this weekend.

Don't worry about all the questions. That is why we are here. Sorry none of us replied to this yesterday. It has been pretty busy around here lately and believe it or not, we all have lives outside this forum!

[jonno]

Thanks Watermom. I'll try to test around 8. Last night I had to test at 6:30p and this morning at 7a the FC was 23.5ppm (CC barely 1.0) - that's the smallest overnight drop so far. I'll keep testing during the day. I'm almost out of the R-0871 titrating reagent - a 2oz bottle used up in less than a week. But testing 5 or 6 times a day and using 50+ drops every test consumes a lot. I had already ordered more, but then I found that Amato industries is closer to my house than the pool store (they have two locations, here in MD and in northern VA - how lucky is that! The woman there is very nice and I can pick some more up today. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the FC will start to hold steady.

By the way, the skimmer sock really makes a difference! Every morning and evening for the past days, I've taken it off and swished it around in a bucket of water to clean it off - not only does it leave the bucket water full of tiny insects and bits, but it turns the water very cloudy - so the sock is trapping tiny stuff too. I don't ever remember the water looking this clear!

I am a happy convert to BBB!

[TheGoose]

Maybe I missed it, but what exactly is a skimmer sock? Thanks in advance.

[PoolDoc]

@ Goose
Skimmer Socks at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A6NRDS/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399381&creativeASIN=B003A6NRDS)

@ Jonno, others
Coral Chemical's Green to Clean is just ammonia!

Instead of ""Disodiumsalt of ethylenediaminetetraaceticaciddihydratediammoniums ulfate", which is Fred Luth's attempt to obfuscate what he's selling, the chemicals should be listed as

Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) ?%
Ammonium sulfate ?%
OR

Ammonium sulfate EDTA 100%
Regardliess, it's mostly ammonium sulfate, which is an industrial waste product that I have bought in 100# bags for about $10 a bag! (I do think they are using a somewhat purified version, that may cost more than $10 cwt.)

Coral Chemials -- used to be Coral Seas -- is a one product company, like United Chemical. But where United Chemical sells sodium bromide, mixed a bunch of different ways, Coral sells ammonia, blended 2 ways: "Green to Clean" and "Yellow Out". I encountered Fred Luth at an NSPI trade show years ago, and thought he was going to jump down my throat when I asked him if "Yellow OUT" was just ammonia.

[jonno]

The pool looks great! But I'm still in a shock cycle. Went swimming today for the first time this season - it made me remember that the pool is not just a big science project. It. was. wonderful!
As of 8pm:
FC 25.5
CC 1.0
pH 7.4 (added 1 qt m. acid)
TA 180
I'm hoping that one of these nights the FC will hold. POPP.

[jonno]

I couldn't test within 2 hours of sunrise because we had a major storm - almost an inch of rain (desparately needed).
9am numbers:
FC 21 (-4.5 drop over 13 overnight hours - could some of this be dilution from the rain water?)
CC 0.5 (yay!)
pH 7.2 - Since the FC is higher than 15, this is falsely high, so I'm hesitant to add any more m. acid until I can lower the FC below 15.
TA 170 - Probably not a good reading due to high FC - it turned from green to blue at 140, light orange at 160, orangey-reddish at 170
More storms and rain today, but I'll keep topping off the chlorine level to 25 throughout and see how the FC holds tonight.

My pool is an unbelievable transformation - thanks to Ben, forum moderators, and the community. Ben - Have you considered starting an area for posts of appreciation and success stories? Perhaps under the group Ben's Corner, Water Treatment Testing and Problems, or even Odds and Ends. Such an area would be encouragement for people with big problems to know that the POPP is worth it. My path from swamp to crystal clear water covers eight pages of posts - but if there were a Success StoryArea, I would condense it to a single post with a few before and after photos and put in a link to this thread for anyone who wants details.

[Watermom]

My pool is an unbelievable transformation - thanks to Ben, forum moderators, and the community. Ben - Have you considered starting an area for posts of appreciation and success stories? Perhaps under the group Ben's Corner, Water Treatment Testing and Problems, or even Odds and Ends. Such an area would be encouragement for people with big problems to know that the POPP is worth it. My path from swamp to crystal clear water covers eight pages of posts - but if there were a Success StoryArea, I would condense it to a single post with a few before and after photos and put in a link to this thread for anyone who wants details.

Jonno,
I have been talking to Ben lately about this very thing. Really glad your pool is doing so well. Hopefully you are just almost there. Glad you swam!

[CarlD]

"Glad you swam!"

That's what it's all about, isn't it? Swimming and playing and having fun! I was in with the boys at 8pm last night and we had a blast, there till the sun went down and the lights started doing their job!

The BEST thing about this experience is you will almost certainly NEVER go through it again!

Carl

[jonno]

Lost 3.5ppm of FC last night - this was over the course of 11 hours (from 8pm to 7am). Still waiting for the loss to be no more than 1ppm overnight, but the CC was only 0.5 and that's encouraging!

After adding bleach to bring it up to 25 ppm, I spot-vacummed up the visible dirt in the areas where it tends to gather - in deep end valleys, scattered over the shallow end, and in indents that pock the slopes. Then I brushed the bottom and walls to suspend the finer sediments.

Even with the brushing action stirring up plumes, the visibility is so clear I can count the bristles on the brush even while it is on the very bottom - 8 feet down. Just a week ago, I was excited because I could just make out a faint dark blob that was my pool brush head on the bottom. A week or so before that, the brush head would disappear completely within 10 inches of the surface!

The shape of the pool is an extended hopper design by Spartan. It has steel walls with a sand bottom - we built it in 1968. After 13 years, the current liner has a number of smooth craters from swimmers heels and toes hitting hard from jumping in, or pushing off in a frantic escape from marco polo. These craters cause mini-eddies in the circulation and the tiny specks accumulate - like debris colonies. For a quick vacuum like today, I use a vacuum head that has no brushes - it is made to be used on concrete pools, but it works well for a quick cleaning.

This is my third liner - the first lasted 17 years, the 2nd 13 years, and this one is in its 14th season so I'm resigned to its scalloped subterrainian landscape. Hope I can stretch a few more years out of it.

I'll post again tomorrow morning with the new numbers. Happy fourth of July everyone! :cool:

[Watermom]

I can just picture those games of Marco Polo now! That is what having a pool is all about! Happy 4th to you, too!

[jonno]

Yay! The FC held overnight at 25 and the CC is between 0.5 and 1.0. Water is crystal clear.

Here's my understanding of the next treatment phase: Let the FC drift down to 15. Once at 15ppm I'll be able to get good test readings for pH and TA. I'll add muriatic acid to keep the pH at 7.0 and continue aerating until my TA settles to 120, then I'll aerate (or add a little borax) until the pH rises to 7.4 - 7.6.


Before I put out an open invitation to swim, I wanted to check with Ben or the other moderators to see if there is anything else I should be doing or watching for.

Also, now that I'm in a new treatment phase, I have several questions:

My CYA is well over 100 so my target FC is 8 to 15. Everytime I add liquid chlorine I should bring it to 15ppm?
If the morning test is, say 12ppm, should I bring it to 15ppm, or wait until it is lower (but no lower than 8)?
When I add liquid chlorine or m. acid, how long before swimmers can enter the the pool?
I've ordered polyquat 60 to have on hand. Should I use it only if I see evidence or algae or do you recommend a maintenance dose?


I know that all of this is basic chemistry, but combination of the advice, education, encouragement, and pool owner patience and persistence (POPP) has yielded miraculous results! Thank you thank you. :D

[Watermom]

I'm doing the happy dance for you!!!

Answers to your questions:
1. Yes
2. You can just test and dose in the evenings.
3. I'd wait about an hour to give it time to mix well. You don't want somebody swimming into a 'hot pocket.'
4. I personally don't use it because I am diligent about my chemistry maintenance. Some people do. It won't hurt but isn't really necessary. If you do decide to use it, know that it will make your FC plummet when you add it. (It is more of a preventative. Once you have algae, it isn't that much of a help. At that point, you just need chlorine and lots of it. You know all about that, don't you!)

You are very welcome. That is why we are here -- to help, educate and encourage. Now, go swim and enjoy that pool!

[jonno]

:D :cool: :D