Taking control of my pool this year

[jilted]

Hello. I decided to post here since my original post discussed 2 issues and was moved to the cleaning forum.
I am here to learn and take control of my pool from here forward! See signature for pool info.

original post:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?11957-New-to-the-forum.-Looking-for-pool-cleaner-and-water-balance-information.

I found the old test kit that was here when we bought the house so it has to be at least 5 years old so it may not be accurate.

It's an HTH Deluxe kit (which I am sure is not great quality) but here are the results:

FC: less than .5
TC: less than .5
pH: 7.5
Alkalinity: 40ppm
I also have an OTO kit and the result from that was just above 1

The Compu Pool wants the salt level around 3500ppm and the built in tester has been reading between 3400-3600 lately.

I am ordering a Taylor kit tonight so I can take accurate tests.

Over the weekend I put a couple 3" chlorine tables in the skimmer (left over from converting last year) and have been running the SWCG on super-chlorinate. From the looks of the tests it looks like my chlorine is already depleted. I know the level can be kept lower in a SW pool, but it sure did come down FAST!

Any input on what to do or should I wait for the taylor kit and then go from there?

thanks!
-stephen

[aylad]

The HTH deluxe kit is not a bad kit until you can get your Taylor, but not knowing how the reagents were stored, there's no way to really know how accurate your readings are. I'll let the salt experts chime in here about the salt, but just off the top of my head, I can tell you that the chlorine probably dissipated as quickly as it did because I'm guessing you have no stabilizer in the water. The trichlor will add a little, but not enough to be able to efficiently run your SWCG, so I would add enough CYA to get up to the level your SWCG manual says to use. It takes up to a week to dissolve, so I would supplement your chlorine using plain, unscented bleach in order to not burn out your SWCG prematurely. In a 26K pool, each gallon of 6% bleach will raise your chlorine by just over 2 ppm, so you can use that as a guide--if your CYA is zero, you need chlorine between 3-6 ppm at all times, which may take multiple applications of bleach during the day until your CYA registers.

Janet

[Watermom]

Do you know your CYA level? That is something important that we will need to know. It could be that it is really low and that would explain why you have a hard time keeping chlorine in the pool. For now, you should add some bleach to get some chlorine in there. In this size pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of plain 6% bleach will add about 2.3ppm of chlorine. Until we know your CYA level, we won't really know how high to tell you to take the chlorine, but for now, I'm going to suggest taking it up to about 6. You many need to add bleach a couple of times per day to keep some cl in there.

Your pH is good, your alk is low. Bump it up a bit with some baking soda. Add a couple of pounds at a time slowly through your skimmer. Test it again a few hours later and continue small additions until your alk is between 80-120. This is not critical. You can do this gradually over several days.

Do get that good kit. That will help you a lot. Post your CYA reading. (If your kit can't measure it and most likely it can't, go to a reputable pool store and ask them to test it for you. Just don't buy all the stuff they are going to try and encourage you to get.)

I am also going to move this post into the Saltwater section of the forum. There you are more likely to get good advice since you have a SWC. Hope this helps some.

EDIT -- Looks like Janet was posting as I was typing.

[jilted]

Thanks for the input. Test kit ordered. I can't measure the CYA with that HTH kit.
Please go easy on me and assume I don't know the best place to get the mentioned chemicals like the cya and the baking soda so don't feel like I would take offense to saying "go here to get this" because I do need to know my best options!
I have Lowes and Walmart withing a few miles of home but Home Depot is 30 miles away.

I manually shocked the pool Saturday with a couple tablets and some left over "super sockit" and the OTO test was dark yellow. Today is is light yellow and I have been running the pool nonstop since it was green on friday!!!
Also, the CompuPool was set on 100% output as well.

Like I said, treat me like a complete newbie! I have had the pool for a few years and I have either just kept slinging chlorine in it or getting bent over by the local store guy always saying now you need this, now you need this.

-stephen

[aylad]

The CYA is sold at Home Depot, Lowe's, Walmart, etc as well as the pool store. It is labeled "conditioner" or "stabilizer" or "balancer", but look at the ingredient....cyanuric or isocyanuric acid is what you want. The baking soda that Watermom referred to is plan baking soda like you cook with--available at any grocery store in the aisle with the flour and sugar.

Your best bet at this point is to go to WalMart and pick up some baking soda and several gallons of plain, unscented, generic bleach. Take a sample of your pool water and let the pool store test it, specifically for CYA--but don't let them sell you the list of stuff they'll try to convince you to buy. Come back and post that CYA number, and we can help you go from there!

Janet

[BigTallGuy]

The toll free number for CompuPool service is 1-888-798-7665. If you bought your SWCG last year, it should still be under Manfacturer's warranty. I have a compuPool CPSC24 that works great. Look into the plastic unit of the cell and see if you notice a white build up that looks like vanilla ice cream or shortening that is caked up on the electrode plates. A little is not bad and it shouldn't be too bad after one year. However, If you notice that quite a bit of the plates are covered with this calcium build up, you may need to clean your cell. Post back and I can send you the instructions. If you run your SWCG system for about 8 - 10 hours per day at 100% you should have plenty of chlorine. Ph must be watched very closely, the more you run you SWCG, the more you will need Muriatic acid to bring your Ph down. Your salt level and Ph sounds perfect, but I run my system for 5 hours a day and my pool is only 11,000-ish gallons. Your unit is bigger, but you have over twice the water. Once you get your pool chlorine under control, you can fine tune your pool and possibly cut down on the run time.

[jilted]

I have been keeping an eye on the cell. There are a few specs but no globs of calcium that look like obstructions. I would still love to see the cleaning instructions so I'll know exactly what to do. Is it better to clean it before it gets bad? Like maybe after this season?

re: CYA
what department in lowes is this usually located? Is this my best option on where to get it (versus the pool store)?

re: baking soda
Maybe I'll go to Sam's and pick up a bulk box :)

Thanks,
-stephen

[aylad]

The CYA at our Lowe's is in the garden department--just ask them where the "pool stuff" is, and they'll usually direct you toward it. I get mine at WalMart in the section where the spa chemicals are.

Wouldn't hurt to get a bulk box of baking soda, I guess, since you can use it for other stuff--not positive, but I believe with a SWCG you're going to want to keep your alk around 70 ish....I'm sure the SWCG experts will chime in here, but I don't think it's going to take as much as you think :)

Janet

[jilted]

Forgot to mention. I was digging around in the garage last night and uncovered a few pool chemicals that the previous owner left behind including a 14lb bucket of stabilizer that's close to full. Does that stuff get old and lose it's potency?

I guess I should still wait to get water tested before making any adjustments correct?

Maybe I can work on alkalinity first since I can measue that. If you are using baking soda is there a chart available on how much to use?

Thanks for all the input. I am soaking it up!

-Stephen

[aylad]

The old stabilizer is probably okay, if it's been stored in a sealed container. I would run a new set of tests on the pool water before making any adjustments at all.....but make sure while all that's happening, that you're keeping at least 3 ppm of chlorine in the pool, because you don't want an algae bloom to contend with!

Janet

[Watermom]

I have used CYA from a previous season, but not sure how long it will last.

In a 26K pool, 3lbs. 10 oz. of baking soda will give you about a 10ppm rise in alk. Don't try and make too big of a change too fast or you may cloud the water.

[BigTallGuy]

I would still love to see the cleaning instructions so I'll know exactly what to do.

Here is the link:

http://www.inyopools.com/HowToPage/how_to_clean_a_compupool_salt_generator_cell.aspx

Ben & Mods, I'm not sure if I am suppose to post this, if I'm not, please forgive me and delete the link.

[jilted]

I have used CYA from a previous season, but not sure how long it will last.

In a 26K pool, 3lbs. 10 oz. of baking soda will give you about a 10ppm rise in alk. Don't try and make too big of a change too fast or you may cloud the water.

Thanks. I won't have time this week to get to the pool store but my kit should be here Friday.

I would like to start building a custom spreadsheet for all the amounts required to make adjustments in my pool (like what you said about the 3lb10oz of baking soda).
Is there a good resource for that someone has already done that I can work from?

Thanks!
-stephen

[PoolDoc]

Yes, this PDF from PoolChlor (a HUGE pool service company in AZ & CA)

http://www.poolhelp.com/SimplifiedDosageFormulas.pdf

Ben

[jilted]

Thanks! That's awesome. I'm gonna convert that to a spreadsheet hehe.

I want to make sure I am close on gallons so for a predominately rectangle pool is this the correct formula?
Length of pool x width of pool x Average depth of water* (Ft.) x 7.5 = Total gallons (US)

Also, I want to make sure I understand the proper methods for adding these different chemicals to my pool. Mainly the cyanuric acid,baking soda, and muriatic acid (i have been just pouring it in by a return jet).
I know the basic stuff like throwing in shock.
I have added Calcium before at the pool store guys recommendation, diluting it in a bucket first since it generates heat.

Also, I read I should turn off the salt cell for an hour when adding anything to the pool, including salt, is this good practice?

Thanks,
-stephen

[Watermom]

Muriatic acid can be added slowly in front of a return jet, baking soda in the skimmer. CYA can either be added directly into the skimmer and then run the pump 24/7 for about 4 days while it dissolves in the filter. Or, you can put the cya in a sock and tie it in front of the return jet. Give it a squeeze a couple of times per day to help it dissolve faster. You do NOT want to add CYA granules in front of a return jet because since it is slow-dissolving, it will sink and sit on the pool floor for a few days. You don't want an acid sitting on the liner. You do NOT need calcium; you have a vinyl liner.

You have done the volume calculation correctly. I'm not sure about your question about turning off the salt cell during chemical applications. I'll let someone else answer that part.

[kelemvor]

Also, I read I should turn off the salt cell for an hour when adding anything to the pool, including salt, is this good practice?

You definitely need to turn the cell off when adding salt. I've never turned off mine when adding bleach or acid, and other than some polyquat about 6 months ago those are the only things I put in my pool.

The reason for turning it off is that adding salt increases the conductivity in the water, and until it's fully dissolved it can increase conductivity enough to cause the cell to draw significantly more current which could damage the cell or your control board/transformer.

[jilted]

You do NOT need calcium; you have a vinyl liner.

Wow. The first 2 years after we bought the house that pool guy sold me BUCKETS of calcium!
I thought he said is was good for the liner... or is that something else?

I'm so glad I found this place. Thanks!

-stephen

[aylad]

Wow. The first 2 years after we bought the house that pool guy sold me BUCKETS of calcium!
I thought he said is was good for the liner... or is that something else?



The only thing it's good for in a vinyl pool is lining the pockets of the pool store guy!! :)

I've heard it makes good driveway de-icer, if you have extra on hand :)

Janet

[jilted]

Test kit arrived today so here are my results. Thanks in advance for input.
I know the chlorine is low I added some bleach early in the week to get by.
Pump has been running 9 hours/day with the SWCG at 100% output.
Water has been clear. No rain since the outbreak though.

Chlorine
FC .8 ppm
CC: .2 ppm
pH
just above 7.8 and took 1 drop to lower it to 7.6
Alkalinity
80 ppm
CYA
unmeasurable - the little black dot never disappeared even when the tube was full!
Calcium (i ran it just for testing practice)
140 ppm

I remeasured my pool today and it came to 28,000 gallons.
17' wide X 40' long X (8+3/2) X 7.5 = 28050
For calculations should I use that number or round up to 30k or down to 25k?
I measured square but my corners are 45 degree angles but the stair area kicks out so the shallow end is wider.

Our Lowe's had no cyanuric acid stabilizer type product.
I called home depot like 30 miles away and they have it.

chemicals I have on hand
a 4 lb box of baking soda
around half of a 14 lb bucket of old cyanuric acid that was left from old home owner (closed in garage kept)
a gallon of muriatic acid
a bucket of 3" chlorine tablets (regal brand i think)
some "super blue" stuff that says it polishes the water (should I trash this stuff or use it one day)
a partial container of ProTeam Severest Algae Treatment (7% copper main ingredient)

[Watermom]

I'd probably just use 28K for dosing purposes. It doesn't have to be exact.

Your alk is ok. Your pH is a little high. You can use a little muriatic acid to lower it. Small additions. Probably a pint or so at a time added slowly in front of a return jet. Glasses, gloves, be upwind of fumes, pour close to water surface to avoid splashing. After a few hours of circulating, test pH and redose until you get the pH where you want it.

I think your CYA is probably ok if it was kept in a closed container in a garage. I'd go ahead and use it before buying more. Add some slowly to the skimmer while the pump is running and then let your pump run 24/7 for the next 4 or 5 days. After a week, retest and then see where you are. I'd probably start with about 7lbs. That should take you to about 35ppm. You can adjust it up a little later if you need to. Better to have to add more instead of overshooting target since CYA can only be removed by doing a partial drain and refill. Most people like 40-50 for CYA so if you target 35, that gives you a little wiggle room. Don't backwash for a week either or otherwise, you'll just be throwing out any undissolved CYA.

I don't know what the super blue stuff is but don't put it in the pool. DEFINITELY do NOT put the algae treatment in the pool. Contrary to popular belief, it is copper that turns blonde hair green, not chlorine.

To save your reagents, use the 10ml water sample instead of the 25ml. 0.5 is good enough accuracy for pool testing results and it will make your reagents last longer.

Hope this helps!

EDIT -- Forgot to talk about chlorine. Until that CYA dissolves, you'll have to add bleach a couple or three times per day. Aim to get to about 5 or 6 each time you add it after testing. After the CYA registers, you should be able to go to testing and dosing in the evenings only.

Another EDIT -- Just remembered that you have a SWCG. Check your manual for CYA level requirements. I think most manufacturers want the CYA around 70 or 80.

[jilted]

OK so I shut the pump timer off this evening and added the old CYA that I had. I didn't have a perfect way to measure so I stood on a scale with and without the bucket and I weighed about 8 lbs more with the bucket. Some of the granules were all stuck together so I broke it all free as best I could and added it slowly to the skimmer.

I found my SWCG manual and sure enough it has recommend pool balance information in it:
CYA: 40-60 minimum up to 100 ppm
FAC: 1-3 ppm
pH: 7.2 - 7.8
Alkalinity: 100 - 120 ppm
Calcium: 200 - 300 ppm (but I guess that isn't necessary for my liner pool)

It also mentions to make sure not to let the CYA drop below 30 ppm.

It also mentions to shut the cell off when adding anything to the pool for at least an hour. I shut it down before adding the CYA and since it's so late I'll just turn it back on in the morning at 100% output. I'll need to go to the store tomorrow and pick up some bleach.

Here is what I found out regarding that super blue stuff:
Robarb Super Blue is a powerful water clarifier that produces and maintains crystal clear pool water without affecting pH balance or other chemicals. Its thick, highly concentrated formulation is designed to clear cloudy water FAST! The formula is non-toxic, non-irritating, biodegradable and improves filter efficiency. Regular use of Super Blue reduces the buildup of fine particles in pool water so that the sanitizer or algaecide is free to keep pool water clear and inviting.

Should I wait for the CYA to work all week before adjusting anything else?

How soon is it safe to swim again?

Thanks again for all the input. I am already more comfortable with all this than I was a week ago!

[Watermom]

I would not use the Super Blue. It isn't needed and some of those products make things worse.

You do not need to wait for the CYA to dissolve before adjusting other things and it as long as your chlorine and pH are in range, you are fine to swim. Glad to hear that you are feeling more confident with your pool maintenance. Reading and doing your homework is always a good thing. Also, if you haven't already done so, go and do some reading on our sister website www.poolsolutions.com.

[jilted]

Just a quick update:

I used my little OTO kit this evening and it was showing my FC at between 2 and 3 ppm and the pH was down closer to 7.2 (but I guess that could be off a little since it is an older kit).

[jilted]

OK I used my Taylor kit this evening. Pool has been running since Sunday night after adding ~8 lbs of CYA.

FC: 7.5 ppm
CC: When I added the 5 drops, it did not turn pink. Is this OK?
pH: 7.6
Alkalinity: 90 ppm
CYA: around 35 ppm

So I still have some work to do on my CYA i guess.
How about that CC issue? Should this have happened?
I guess I'm off to find more CYA this weekend since our Lowe's doesn't seem to have it. Would a feed store possibly have it? I live out in the country hehe.

Thanks,
-stephen

[aylad]

CC: When I added the 5 drops, it did not turn pink. Is this OK?


Absolutely!! If it didn't turn pink, that means you have no CC, and that's the whole goal!! Your other numbers look pretty good, other than the CYA still being too low. A feed store probably will not have CYA, but if you have a Tractor Supply Co (the chain) nearby, sometimes they do. Otherwise, go to WalMart and check the section where the spa chems are.

Janet

[jilted]

OK Walmart had the HTH brand that was a 4 lb container of 96% CYA for like $14
Went back to Lowes on the way out and they DID have CYA this time heh.
Our Lowes has the Aqua-Chem brand and it was a 3 lb container of 100% CYA for $13

I had already bought the HTH and wasn't going back in that madhouse.

Is there much of a difference in the two brands being 96% and 100% CYA?

Anyway, I put another 4 lbs in which should give me maybe another ~15 ppm which would bring me to 50. Should I try to bump it up a tad bit more?

Thanks,
-stephen

[Watermom]

I wouldn't add anymore CYA yet. The 4 lb. addition should add about 18ppm more of CYA which would put you up to about 53 which is in range suggested by your SWCG manufacturer. You can always add more later. Easier to add more later than need to remove.

[jilted]

Thanks. So now that I have my CYA under control, about where should I try to keep my chlorine level at? I think I read that since the SWCG is constantly producing chlorine that you can keep it lower than if you were using granules and tablets.

Also, is there a consensus on when I should run the pump? Day or night?

Thanks,
-stephen

[Watermom]

Read your literature that came with your SWCG. It should give you the chlorine levels needed for your system. I run my pump during the day. Some people do nights because electricity rates are cheaper then. I am not too familiar with SWCG operation, so let's see if one of our SWCG guys has any opinions on this and why.

[jilted]

I'll check. This forum has been a wonderful learning experience so far. I appreciate the knowledge I have gained! I already have a friend emailing me to come test his pool!

So I'm getting down to basics now as most of my tougher issues seem to be getting resolved.
-Is there a rule of thumb on how many hours to run the pump? A friend in Texas that has a pool said 1 hour per 10 degrees of pool water is pretty close.
-For a "true shock" I should use liquid chlorine bleach, so how many ppm should I try to raise it by for it to be effective? Also, is it best to "pre prepare" the pool (set the SWCG to 100%) say before a party when you know 15-20 people are going to be in the pool?
-Regarding shocking the pool, should it be on a regular proactive schedule or reactive to things like heavy rainfall?

Think I am getting close to knowing just about everything I wanted to know about my pool!

-stephen

[jilted]

Reduced my SWCG output to 20% this evening because the OTO kit has been showing about 5 ppm (maybe more its pretty dark yellow) for the past 2 days in the evening. Also put my pump back on a 9 hour run time from 9am to 6pm. So my pump is finally getting a break tonight!

For reference, last year when there were still other chems in the pool from being pool store'd, I was able to run the SWCG at 20% all season so I'm guessing there was some CYA still in the pool back then. Once a week I would hit the superchlorinate button back then.

[kelemvor]

What I do is run my pump enough to adequately filter the water, and then adjust my swcg output to a suitable percentage given the runtime I'm using. Currently at 40% output with a pump runtime of 6 hours/day. I've only got 12k gallons of water and a 2hp pump, though. I think to "calculate" the proper runtime for your pump you need to know the actual flow rate you've got; which from what I can tell is difficult to determine unless you buy and install a flow meter. I'm pretty sure the filter size plays into this as well, but I don't fully understand how that would affect the calculation. I think there's a "rule of thumb" that you want to be able to filter 100% of your water x time's /day but I can't remember what that x is (2 or 4 or something I think I read).

I started with 4h runtime and bumped it up to 6 recently because I could see particles in the water when the light was on in my pool. I also just bumped my swcg up to 40% from 10% because I tested yesterday and found 0 FC in the water around noon. My CYA level is lower than it should be at around 45; and FC levels are a little higher than the 2ppm I was shooting for as well (I still don't fully understand why I'm supposed to target a lower fc level given my cya than the best guess chart shows). Based on the 4PPM fc level I just measured I think I'm going to back the swcg down to 30 tonight.

I think in general, from a chlorine generating perspective you want longer runtime and lower swcg output so you have a more consistent chlorine level. My cl gets a little higher by the end of my daily run, and gradually drops until the next run. I think I've seen pooldoc recommend multiple shorter runs over running once a day like I do. I run the pump when I do because I like to see the waterfalls and stuff and 4p-10p is when I'm most likely to be out there.

[jilted]

Just checking in. My pool has been doing great. I've been checking the FC and pH pretty often and my last CYA check was around 50ppm. My FC has been running around 3ppm. I'm still running the unit at 20% output and the pump runs for 9 hours. I ordered a salt test strip kit so I can validate if the reading on the SWCG is accurate. Going to give it a shot this evening.

I still have to make a decision on a vac though... my polaris works one day and not the next or works for an hour then moves slow for a while then moves fast again.

[jilted]

Looks like running at 20% for 9 hours is pretty much a slow downward slope.

I thought of something else that I didn't cover regarding shocking the pool. Is there a preemptive schedule I should follow? How many PPM rise should I shoot for when shocking? I should be using liquid bleach for this right?

Thanks!
-stephen

[Watermom]

You shock whenever you have cloudy or green water, a CC reading greater than 0.5ppm or if you lose more than 1ppm of chlorine overnight. Shock levels are based on CYA levels. Take a look at the Best Guess Chlorine chart in my signature. Yes to using liquid chlorine for shocking purposes.