Chlorine Pucks vs Bleach

[jimgregory]

Joined forum last year, ordered kit and sure enough cya was way high. Started using bleach and upon opening my cya is 40-50.

Now here is the issue, it seems to me that the advantage of bleach over pucks is cheaper and no cya. I'll grant you the no cya, but I don't think its that much cheaper.

On the other hand, I miss my auto chlor. feeder. It seems an inconverience to have to add bleach every night or so. Also I have ot been able to keep my levels consistant.

It seems there should be an answer to this, either use pucks without cya. Are they available? Has anyone used them? Any reason not to use them?

Or, have an auto feed for bleach. Is there one out there? Has anyone used one with success or failure?

I am interested in all comments.

[JohnT]

Pucks without CYA aren't available. Pumps that can handle bleach and have a reasonable level of control are pretty expensive. The downside to any chlorinator is that chlorine demand varies widely from day to day depending on many variables.

Regardless of how you chlorinate, you should check your chlorine level often, and adding a shot of bleach as required doesn't really take any extra time over the testing. A Salt Water Chlorine Generator is the easiest method of chlorination that has few drawbacks. Initial cost is the main drawback.

[nater]

If you're willing to spend $500-$1,000, a SWC is a good option for "hassle" free chlorination. Spend some time searching the threads here for people's opinions on the benefits vs. drawbacks of SWC's.

[CarlD]

Peristaltic pumps for bleach with timers aren't THAT expensive and a setup should cost you a lot less than an SWG.

[crazimom]

jimgregory......although most people on this forum hate the pucks, I use them , and so far find them to be great. This is my second year with no trouble. I backwash about once a week, and use cal hypo shock, and baking soda. I personally don't think "their" way is the only way. everyone needs to do what is best and most convenient for themselves. ok I'm jumping off the high horse now !

[faithfulfrank]

Dear Jim,
I understand where you are coming from. I too feel about the same way. I need to decide what i'm doing this year with chlorine also. I used the pucks in the past, and they worked well, except having very high cya counts by the end if the year.

So the next year I got a great deal on shock, and used just that for one year, until late in the season when all of a sudden I had cloudy water. Lesson learned was that too much cal hypo was also bad.....

So the last two years, I've made a lot of trips buying tons of bleach from the dollar store, walmart, etc, and my recycling bins were overflowing.....

I do use pucks for the winter, and i'm now out, so I think i will buy another bucket, that will last me a few years, and do a combo of pucks and bleach, although I know not to use them at the same time.

Bleach seems to have gone up, and it is a pain to keep buying it, as opposed to buying one bucket of pucks every two years.....I could deal with high cya....just have to keep my FC higher.

Frank D.

[jimgregory]

Thanks,

For those great and quick comments. Please keep them coming.

I am glad to see that I am not the only one that has this issue. I will definetly check out that bleach pump. In the mean time I think that with my low cya numbers I will have to add less bleach, so I will try to develop a night time routine to keep the chlorine levels correct.

Wouldn't it be nice I someone develped a pump that took 10 gal. of bleach, with a contol dial, and would last about a month ( I know many different conditions require diff. use of chlorine).

Jim

[PhantomAndy]

I had used Tri-Chlor pucks in my Pentair feeder for 2 1/2 years until last year.

I decided to give the BBB a try. What I found was that for my pool (about 22,000 gallon Vinyl IG) that I had to add about 96oz (3/4 of a gallon) of bleach each day to keep my levels where they needed to be (about 1ppm of Cl by the end of the day, bumping to about 3 - 3.5 ppm after adding the bleach).

It only takes a second to add the bleach - but I just didn't like the hassle of having to remember to do it every day (I get lots of sun on my pool - from about 9am - 8pm during the peak of the summer).

I didn't have any problems with this method, except I almost never had to use the Borax - but instead ended up having to use either dry acid, or muratic acid to adjust my pH instead.

The other thing that I didn't like was all the bottles. For me the cheapest option for bleach was the 3/4 gallon (96oz) Walmart Ultra (6%) bleach for $0.78. As a result I had between 5 and 7 empty plastic bottles a week that I had to haul to the recycler ever few weeks.

Another draw back - this year - that same $0.78 bottle of bleach is now $1.28, making the cost over $1.70 / gallon, and the larger bottles work out about the same. I don't have any local sources for bulk bleach.

I'll have to keep an eye on my CYA this year - but it's so low starting the season I should be OK - and if it gets out of check, I can slow the feeder down, and supplement a few times a week with bleach to keep it in contol.

The pH should be more balanced this way as well.

To each his own - and maybe someday I'll go SWG, but for now - the Pentair Rainbow online feeder will do the trick.

Good luck - and test often :)

[CarlD]

OK, let's see if we can clear this up:

1) It's your pool. What you do with it is your choice. You are the ultimate king, queen, or despot in your backyard. It's also your responsibility when something goes wrong.
2) We advocate a particular philosophy of pool care because it is based on logic, experience and pool chemistry.
3) Our basic advocacy of the B-B-B strategy is the mainline. It is not the only one. For new concrete pool owners with new water I frequently recommend they use Tri-Chlor tabs in floaters because the side effects of Tri-Chlor will be beneficial. But for most people B-B-B works perfectly.
4) The side effects of Tri-Chlor on your water are real, measurable and drastic. Your CYA will continually increase, and your pH will be pushed into the acid range (these are great for new concrete pools, lousy for the rest of us).
5) There are virtually NO side effects of liquid chlorine on your pool water. It doesn't alter pH noticeably, and it doesn't add CYA. This is a fact. That is why we prefer it.
6) Higher CYA requires a higher residual level of chlorine to prevent algae. Many people who have used tabs for years find themselves with CYA levels of 100 or 120ppm. At these levels you MUST maintain your chlorine at a minimun of 8ppm--much higher than most test kits go. Otherwise you will get a an algae bloom. Not may, will. Sooner or later your CYA will rise from the tablets.
7) We do not advocate Bleach because we "like" it, but because it is the simplest, cleanest and most effective way to get chlorine into your water. It's also the EASIEST by far to calculate how much it will add (1 gallon of Regular Chorine--5.25% -- will add EXACTLY 5.25ppm of FC to 10,000 gallons of water)
8) We (PoolDoc, the moderators and the most experienced members) practice what we preach in our own pools. Our own, personal experience tells us our methods work.
9) We get lazy and make mistakes as well. When that happens, we give ourselves a kick in the rump and follow our own rules--and re-inforce to ourselves that they work. I had a minor bloom last summer. Cleaned it up in 48 hours--by dosing my FC up to 15 ppm and keeping it there.
10) If you have a problem, you can follow our advice, or the pool store's. Again, it's your pool, your choice. I know LOTS of people who insist pool care is a snap, insist they never have a problem and don't follow our rules. OK. Enjoy.

[faithfulfrank]

Dear Carl,
Thanks for your informative post. I do not disagree with anything you said..I agree that regular bleach has no negitive effects, and is the method of chioce here.
I do use pucks for winterizing, since I do not cover my pool, and I also use them during vacations, etc.
They are easier, but do not come without the problems you stated.

It is nice that we have options.

By the way....could you be so kind as to give me the definition of "BBB"
I'm guessing it stands for Bleach, borax and baking soda, but that is just a guess.
We have such long winters here outside of Buffalo, that by spring, my pool knowledge is rusty and I need to re-read everything here to get back in the know.

thanks, Frank D.

[sunofthebeach]

here is my plan

I buy an $80 50 lb bucket of Chlorine pucks from BJ’s at the start of the season. The bucket will last all season. I shock my pool with bleach almost every Sunday with 2 jugs of bleach. (24,000 gal pool) Swimming season is May through September so bleach cost is about $40.

This method allows me to chlorinate my pool for $120 a season and I am only adding chemicals/pucks once a week. I do test the water 3 times a week though.

I don’t really care about CYA, because I open my pool to 0 CYA at the start of every season.

[CarlD]

Frank,
Sorry, B-B-B, is exactly that--Bleach, Borax and Baking Soda.

Sunofthebeach,
As I said, it's your pool, your are the lord of your domain. But you need to realize that CYA levels directly effect the level of chlorine you need to keep your pool sanitary. At 100ppm of CYA, you need to keep your Free Chlorine level at around 8ppm. But at 30ppm of CYA, a Free Chlorine level of 3ppm is more than sufficient.

As long as you KNOW how much CYA is in your pool and therefore how high your Free Chlorine level needs to be--and keep the Free Chlorine level there--you'll be fine, no matter what the CYA is. But if you do NOT know the CYA level, then you are probably underchlorinating or overchlorinating your pool and relying on luck to be at the correct level of chlorine and not get an algae bloom.

I not big on relying on luck myself--I just test my CYA level once a week.

[tphaggerty]

I voted for an SWG but follow the rest of the advice here as closely as possible. As has been said before, a SWG is not the cheapest way to go, but it excels in 2 areas:

1) Very convienent. Once you are dialed in for the season, there is very little to do except test and (normally) minor adjustments. A lot of folks wind up doing a weekly acid dose, I haven't had to yet.

2) "Other" benefits. There is no doubt that the water feels softer, warmer and you don't need to rinse when you get out. I think the water feels better because it is pretty much kept in constant balance, as opposed to the ups and downs of adding chemicals and then having them dissapate over time.

I used bleach when I opened (what I learned, don't start heating your pool until you have all of the chemistry balanced!!) to clear some cloudiness. I use borax to maintain the alk and will use muriatic acid to lower PH once I use up the dry acid I have. Ben's test kit is (hopefully) on the way.

I think many here would agree that BBB can also be SWG/BB and work just as well.

[CarlD]

I voted for an SWG but follow the rest of the advice here as closely as possible. As has been said before, a SWG is not the cheapest way to go, but it excels in 2 areas:

1) Very convienent. Once you are dialed in for the season, there is very little to do except test and (normally) minor adjustments. A lot of folks wind up doing a weekly acid dose, I haven't had to yet.

2) "Other" benefits. There is no doubt that the water feels softer, warmer and you don't need to rinse when you get out. I think the water feels better because it is pretty much kept in constant balance, as opposed to the ups and downs of adding chemicals and then having them dissapate over time.

I used bleach when I opened (what I learned, don't start heating your pool until you have all of the chemistry balanced!!) to clear some cloudiness. I use borax to maintain the alk and will use muriatic acid to lower PH once I use up the dry acid I have. Ben's test kit is (hopefully) on the way.

Minor correction: Borax is for raising pH (making the water more basic, or alkaline) but it is NOT for maintaining alkalinity.

Alkalinity or Total Alkalinity, is kind of a misnomer. It's really a pH buffer to prevent pH see-sawing. Use Baking Soda to raise it.

Nothing wrong with dry acid--I actually use it because it's a bit easier and safer to handle than muriatic acid. But M/A is fine, too. I just don't like dry acid when it's called "Low'n'Slo" and has a price of $Boo-Coo!:(



I think many here would agree that BBB can also be SWG/BB and work just as well.

Absolutely!

[tphaggerty]

Minor correction: Borax is for raising pH (making the water more basic, or alkaline) but it is NOT for maintaining alkalinity.


Oops! Fingers working faster than brain. Thanks for the correction.

[sunofthebeach]

Sunofthebeach,
As I said, it's your pool, your are the lord of your domain. But you need to realize that CYA levels directly effect the level of chlorine you need to keep your pool sanitary. At 100ppm of CYA, you need to keep your Free Chlorine level at around 8ppm. But at 30ppm of CYA, a Free Chlorine level of 3ppm is more than sufficient.

As long as you KNOW how much CYA is in your pool and therefore how high your Free Chlorine level needs to be--and keep the Free Chlorine level there--you'll be fine, no matter what the CYA is. But if you do NOT know the CYA level, then you are probably underchlorinating or overchlorinating your pool and relying on luck to be at the correct level of chlorine and not get an algae bloom.

I not big on relying on luck myself--I just test my CYA level once a week.


I was not as clear as I should have been. What I meant to say is I don’t really care about the added CYAfrom the pucks, because I open my pool to 0 CYA at the start of every season. I do put 35 ppm of CYA in my pool at the start of the season and it elevates a little from the pucks. The part I don't care about is that I am adding CYA, because by next season it will be gone.

[faithfulfrank]

I tend to think of it like this;

total alkalinity is to ph as cya is to free chlorine.

So alkalinity is kind of a stabilizer to ph......

Would you agree??

BTW, I was somewhat suprised to see my start of the season cya level was already at 60......I kept it at about 35-40 last season, using just bleach and an occasional pack of shock, neither had cya......
But for over the winter, I did add a floater with 5 pucks in it in the fall, and 5 more pucks as soon as the ice melted, so 10 pucks raised it about 20.....

After I add the needed 10 or more inches of water to get the pool level up to the normal level, the cya should be down a bit more. I'll use mostly bleach this year, but boy, that too jumped up a bit in price.....oh well, life is still good......!

Frank D.

[CarlD]

I was not as clear as I should have been. What I meant to say is I don’t really care about the added CYAfrom the pucks, because I open my pool to 0 CYA at the start of every season. I do put 35 ppm of CYA in my pool at the start of the season and it elevates a little from the pucks. The part I don't care about is that I am adding CYA, because by next season it will be gone.

As long as you are aware of what the CYA is throughout the season and adjust your FC accordingly, you are OK. See the post below yours for how much CYA pucks can add.

When we went on vacation a couple of years ago (for 2 weeks), I left 4 floaters wide open, each with 4 pucks in a 20,000 gal pool. I'd say about 10-12 of the pucks had dissolved, and my CYA shot from 30ppm to 65ppm. My pH was at 6.8 (which means less) and it took 4 boxes of Borax to get it back to normal. That means each puck was adding 2-3ppm of CYA to my 20,000 gallons.

Something to think about.

[faithfulfrank]

Carl,
Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that Tri-chlor has the side effect of lowering your ph.........
or does acid rain, normal life do this. I ask because i do not think i've ever had to lower my ph, but I do need to bring it up using 20 mule team borax every so often.
I just added some today because my ph was 7.2...although I won't even "open" my pool and hook up my filter for a few weeks.

Thanks,
Frank D.

[Watermom]

Yes - trichlor is very acidic and will lower your ph.

[geordie]

It is all about balance and the frequent testing of your water. Amazing how quickly you will get the hang of adjusting your water simply if you test it accurately and often.

Carl and Watermom really do know what they are talking about and if you follow their advice it will get you on the right track. I don't think anyone on this board actually hates the pucks, although it sure is a good idea to understand their effects. Many prefer not to use them and I think most people would advocate not using them exclusively.

I have a 12K gallon pool and I use pucks sparingly during the summer. Our water has a naturally high ph here, and for some reason using regular bleach drives the ph up. For most people the ph rise from bleach is temporary and drops naturally. In my pool the ph goes up and just keeps going up if I don't deal with it.

In my pool a puck a week keeps my ph nicely in balance, and I never add anything else other than bleach. Not BBB... just the first B. We get heavy rain or snow most winters and I lose/exchange enough water that I open to little or no CYA every spring. I use pucks to open and it brings my CYA up to around 30. Our swim season is about 16 weeks. I use two or three pucks during our vacations to maintain.

Since CYA is basically measured in increments of 10, 1 puck dissolved in 12K gallons is not measurable. After about 8 pucks (usually 8 weeks for me) I see an increase in my CYA of about 10. We also experience quite a bit of rain, and how much your CYA increases will depend upon the dillution and backwashing that you do.

If you decide to continue using some pucks you really need to test CYA every week as Carl said. Also, be aware that any CYA you add to your pool takes roughly a week before you get an accurate measurement.

When your CYA rises you have to look at Ben's chart to help you figure out what ppm level of chlorine you need to maintain in order to effectively sanitize your water. If you run your CYA low and keep your chlorine constant at 3ppm it works okay. If your CYA goes up 10 or 20 and you continue to keep your chlorine at 3ppm, you will wake up one day with swamp thing :-) I know, I did it a few years ago... that is how I found this site.

Good luck.

Jean

[CarlD]

I don't think anyone on this board actually hates the pucks

This is certainly true. The more you understand about Tri-Chlor tablets, the more you realize they can be very useful such as in Jean's strategy.

However, I can honestly say I HATE the pucks that also have copper in them. HTH puts the copper in their pucks SOLELY so they can market them as "dual acting", knowing full well that the adverse effects of copper on your pool and water offset the algae killing advantages. It's a cynical, cold attempt to get you to buy their product which is INFERIOR to ordinary Tri-Chlor pucks. In WalMart and CostCo and K-Mart, HTH is marketing this garbage along with 48% chlorine Cal-Hypo--another garbage product.

Nothing wrong with Cal-Hypo--if you use it appropriately, but the good stuff is 68% chlorine, not 48%.

[faithfulfrank]

thank you Carl and Lisa!
I'm pretty much along the lines of Jean.......I use the pucks mainly winter/spring since I don't cover my pool, and for vacations.

I enjoy this forum and all the great help, etc.......
I'm really getting excited about getting the pool open this year, but we have another 3-4 weeks before we do that around here, so I'm using this forum to get myself ready, and to satisfy the "pool craving" until I can.

Thanks again for your kind help.

Frank D.