kjh9835's pool

[kjh9835]

Mods: sorry if this is a double post. I posted this morning, it didn't appear to have be sent due to slow internet connection, I left computer, came back and it was still on the screen so I am tryng again. Windy here today, live in country where slight breeze interferes with connection, my apologies if it is sent twice.

I have an Intex 18x48 above ground metal frame pool filled with well water. It's been up and running about two weeks. This is my second year as a pool owner, last year had a few issues but nothing major til the end of the year so we just drained it and stored it. Now it has issues and I have questions:

1) Does it matter what order I correct the chemical levels? If so, please advise on what order. When using different chemicals, what is the best time frame to wait to add a different one? Is a few hours sufficient or should I wait 24 hours?

2) I cannot keep FC in the pool, it goes from 20 (deep purple on test strip) to zero in a matter of hours. I used stabliizer per pkg directions once I got the chlorine to 10 (stroke of luck it was good at the time I added stabilizer) I have added dollar store bleach, used shock n swim 3 times and have 2-3" tablets in a floater. My pool is in direct sunlight but shouldn't the stabilizer help prevent this loss? Yesterday morning it was really high so I took out the floater, now it's 10 again so I put in more stabilizer and the floater this morning.

3) I can see the print liner but the water is hazy. I used clarifier, 7 oz every 36 hours three times, it did nothing. I called the chemical help line on Thursday about the cloudy water. My TA is high (test strip goes to teal at 240), my result is more blue than green so I assume it's higher than 240. I have since added nearly 20 pounds of ph minus (2 pounds every 8 hours) but it has not changed one bit. The ph is lower (now 6.4) but the TA is still the same color and I test it twice a day so basically I feel I've wasted $50 of chemicals. Why is it not working?


4) Vaccuming the bottom: When the water is hazy, there is sediment on the bottom esp at the edges. I have spent at least one hour twice daily for days sucking junk off the bottom but the water gets cloudier and cloudier the more I move around therefore I cannot see where I've been/not been so I just keep on cleaning until my arms give out. I have let the pump run continuously and rinsed the paper (A) filter each time I've added more chemicals. I usually change it weekly. The surface is cleaned both manually and with a surface skimmer so I'm not getting alot of debris just stirring up the sediment on the bottom. I think it is undissolved chemicals but how can I prevent this if I'm not supposed to dilute the powders first?

5) I use algaecide weekly per pkg directions so I don't think that's why the water is cloudy (possible cause in troubleshooting guide I read)

6) Even though I added stabilizer my CYA level has not changed, it's been zero since I filled the pool.



I know this is lengthy but I'm trying to give you enough info to make it easier for you to advise me. I now have a logbook next the chemicals so I can track everything I do and not have to try to remember when I did what at what time on what day.

Thank you so much for any responses and advice.

kjh9835

[aylad]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!!

#1. When adjusting chemicals, normally you first want to get "some" chlorine into the water. Next, get your pH adjusted to between 7.0 and 7.8. With yours currently at 6.4, this becomes the priority for you, because pH lower than 7.0 is too acidic and can damage your pool liner. Get some Borax and get it into the skimmer, very slowly, breaking up clumps--I'd start with a couple of cups--just add it slowly enough that you don't clog your piping. Let it circulate for a couple of hours, retest pH, and add more Borax if necessary. When you get your pH above 7.0, then you can stop there for now. After pH and chlorine, then you need to get the stabilizer in the pool, which, if added through the skimmer, can take up to 4-5 days to dissolve and register. If you have added it via broadcasting, then you've probably already vacuumed out what you added and need to start over. The pucks will add some, but it will be awhile before it gets high enough to register. AFter all that is under control, THEN I would start worrying about your alk.

#2. The reason you can't keep chlorine in the pool is probably that your stabilizer is zero. Until you have some CYA in the water, you'll need to add chlorine a couple of times daily to replace what the sun is consuming. If you test at night and again in the morning before the sun is on the pool, and you still have lost chlorine, then you probably need to shock the pool by bringing your chlorine level up to 12-15 ppm.

#3. Forget the clarifiers, they are just adding chlorine demand to your pool. If you have adequate chlorine in the pool, and your filter is working properly, the water will clear up. For now, I wouldn't add anything except chlorine, CYA, and Borax. As far as lowering the alk, when you get to that point, you're only supposed to lower the pH to 7.0, and then aerate your water to raise the pH again before adding more acid. That way the TA is ratcheted down again and the pH stays high enough not to damage your pool. Here's the procedure.. http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html but you're going to need a good, drop-based test kit instead of strips in order to do it correctly.

#4, If you'll add the powders to the skimmer, very slowly, then they can sit on the cartridge and dissolve. You'll just have to not add too many at a time to keep from clogging up the filter. The other option is to put the powdered chems in a sock and suspend them in front of your return, so it dissolves straight into the water and doesn't gunk up your filter.

#5. Forget the algaecide, it's adding chlorine demand, and quite possibly adding to the haziness of your water, depending on what type you use. The only one we recommend here is Polyquat 60, and even then only in certain circumstances. If you keep adequate levels of chlorine in the pool, you don't need algaecide.

#6. See response #1.

Welcome to the forum!!

Janet

[kjh9835]

Yay, I found it. Thank you Janet for getting it to show up. I did find it one time under "new posts", decided to print your response, internet went off (yet again) and when I came back, of course it was not a new post and I could not find it. Then I tried to figure out how to take a screen shot (too computer illiterate to do that), came back here again and found it. Many thanks. I had already printed off the step by step on how to lower TA from poolsolutions but it's an hour to town and back and did not get supplies today as I was waiting for response here to see what else I needed.

Off to the store now for supplies and drop test kit. Wish me luck.

kjh9835

[kjh9835]

I'm back with baking soda, bleach, borax and a 6 way drop test kit.
FC >5 (shows up deep yellow)
pH 7.2
TA/CA 300
CYA 40

I added stabilizer this morning. There is residue on the bottom of the pool so I'm off to vacuum it again then if it needs more in the morning, I'll put it thru the skimmer.

Thank you again,
kjh9835

[Watermom]

I don't know what happened to your post that I moved this morning. That was weird. We've asked Ben to figure out why you couldn't see it.

At any rate, I hope you didn't add much stabilizer since you are now reporting that it is 40. That is a great level and you really don't want it higher. How did you add it? If you added it to the skimmer, can you rinse the cartridge to remove it? Or, did you broadcast it across the pool? If so, vac to waste to remove it. You really don't want it higher than 40-50. With a CYA of 40, you'll want to shock the pool up to 15ppm and try and keep it there by frequent testing and adding more bleach any time you find that it has dropped. There is no such thing as adding bleach too often when you are trying to clear a pool. I estimate your volume to be around 7000 gallons. In a pool this size, each quart of 6% bleach will add about 2ppm of chlorine. You can use that as a reference to help you figure out how much bleach to add each time you test to get back to 15ppm.

Run the pump 24/7 right now.

EDIT -- I wanted to thank you for becoming a subscriber. We appreciate that as it helps the forum online.

[kjh9835]

Again, I apologize if these end up being duplicate posts. I have lousy internet service and don't know when they appear unless I log out and come back. If they aren't there, I repost.

I broadcast the stabilizer this morning but have cleaned the bottom twice since then so most of it is gone. Glad to have the bleach ratio info, I wrote that down in my logbook for future reference.

Your welcome on the subscriber, I'll gladly support anyone/anysite that provides helpful information esp when it comes to things I know very little about and saving money. I can return the un-used chemicals, get more than that back not to mention what I won't be spending in the weeks to come. I told my sister about your site also (she has the same pool in TN).

There's no way to hang a sock directly over my return spout but I can make a sheer fabric bag tomorrow with hanging loops to go around the top edge of the pool and still be long enough to reach the return spout the correct distance for dispensing chemicals. If the chemicals damage the bag, I'll just make another. I made my own larger size debris bag for the vacuum since ours disappeared. Knee highs work but they stretch out too much. I had planned to make an XL size leaf/debris skimmer with a hula hoop and sheer fabric but bought a surface skimmer that hangs on the side instead for $25. Other than the $14 here, it's the best thing I've spent money on for the pool.

Good night,
kjh9835

[Watermom]

Since you are reporting that your CYA is 40, don't add any more CYA. Do not do the hang a sock in front of the return thing. Your CYA is already high enough. When you removed the CYA from the pool floor, I assume that you vacuumed it up which means it is now sitting in your filter dissolving and adding more CYA which you don't want. So, backwash your filter and get it out of there.

One other note --- remember that new members have to have their posts approved by a moderator before they appear on the forum. When you post, your post goes to a moderation queue to wait until one of the Pool Forum staff reads it and releases it from the queue. So, you will not see your posts immediately upon submitting them. Usually one of us in online most of the time, but sometimes there may be a couple of hours when none of us are. But, typically your post will be modded in within a couple of hours if not sooner.

[kjh9835]

Had already gone to bed when you replied. I did wash the filter out after cleaning the bottom and after testing this morning and reading your post, I put a new one in since these were my readings:
FC orange (test only goes to 5 so I figure it's plenty shocked)
pH 7.5
TA/CA 250
CYA 60 (so new filter to keep more out).

Since my bottle of CYA solution is only good for three tests (22 ml bottle, takes 7ml each test), I'm assuming I can purchase single bottles of solutions? Nearest pool store is quite a drive for me and I go back to work today so online is my best option. Who uses what company for the best prices/shipping options?

Once I get home tonight, should I start on the lowering the TA level with the step by step method I printed off yesterday?

I understand about the post approval before appearing, I usually won't look right away as it takes time for other members to read/reply anyway. I just have trouble with my internet and didn't want to aggarvate anyone by having two or three single posts of mine show up and have to be removed. I usually have to post, copy that post, submit, log off, log back on, refresh then paste my post in again before it will even give me the message "waiting on approval". It's not your site, but any forum I visit. I just deal with it but sometimes I do have duplicates show up.

Have a great day and thanks again for your replies/assistance.

kjh9835

[Watermom]

How does your water look today? Yes, you can go ahead and start working to lower the alk. It is a gradual process so don't expect huge changes quickly.

I'll let someone else advise you where to buy CYA reagents but to answer your question, yes, you can buy bottles of it. In fact, you can buy much larger bottles of it than what comes in the kit.

While you are doing the online ordering of the CYA reagent, do yourself a big favor and go ahead and order a good test kit. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C which is the same kit with larger bottles of some of the most used reagents. If you order through the Amazon link in my signature, the Pool Forum makes a little money on the sale which helps keep the forum up and running. Only buy if the seller is Amato Industries, however. Some other sellers are substituting the K-2005 which you do NOT want.

Regarding making duplicate posts -- don't worry about it if it does happen. One of us will just delete the extra one. Glad you found us and hope we are helping! You have a great day, too.

[aylad]

I believe you can also order reagent refills from Amato Industries, but you can also get them directly frrom the Taylor site (taylortechnologies.com). I usually get mine from www.spspoolspas.com, since they have one of the best prices I've found. You might look at the instructions that came with your 5-way kit and see if there's a phone number there to reorder reagents, and compare their prices.

I would wait to start lowering your alk until the pool shocking is done, because the amount of acid you use at a time to lower the pH and alk depends on an accurate pH result, which you won't have when your chlorine level is above 10 ppm. With chlorine levels above 10 ppm, pH results tend to read falsely high, so you might end up accidentally lowering your pH by too much by depending on a false high number. Get your chlorine issues adjusted first, and then when you can let the chlorine drift back down to "normal" ranges, then start working on the TA.

Janet

[Watermom]

I would wait to start lowering your alk until the pool shocking is done, because the amount of acid you use at a time to lower the pH and alk depends on an accurate pH result, which you won't have when your chlorine level is above 10 ppm.

Good catch, Jan. You're right.

[kjh9835]

Water is still hazy. I vacuumed the bottom again but only got about 1/2 teaspoon of white granules and a few specks of debris in an hour so if the chemical residues are now gone and the water is still hazy, it must be the high alk level?

FC is still orange (so high, same as this morning)
ph 7.5 (same as this morning)
TA/CA 250 (same as this morning)

[aylad]

It is possible, but it is also possible that you're barely holding off a nascent algae bloom because your chlorine kept dropping before. If you can see this link http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?10073-Testing-high-chlorine-levels-(without-a-good-testkit), try testing your chlorine tonight after sundown and again in the morning before sunup, to see if you're losing more than 1 ppm of chlorine overnight. This is a ballpark, but maybe it'll be close enough. If you are losing chlorine overnight, then the haziness is probably due to algae trying to bloom, and you'll need to maintain shock level a little longer.

It is possible that the haziness is from overuse of clarifiers, and the only thing I know to do about that is shock the pool to try to break them down and filter it out.

It is also possible that the high alk is causing it, in which case you'll need to lower it with muriatic acid per the steps that you've already printed out--but make sure that you rule out overnight chlorine demand before you let it come back down.

Janet

[kjh9835]

Oops, posted before I was done.
I did not test the CYA level again.

Once the chlorine level is down then I'll start with getting the alk level down. My husband rigged me up aeration with his air compressor and I also think I can use a garden hose with shower setting on and put it just under the water level for more bubbles. I'll read more about that this evening.

How did the alk. level get so high anyway? Is it the well water?
I guess I could test it straight from the hose and see what I get?
Once I get the level down, is it going to be a continuing battle all Summer?
Is there a problem/damage to pool if it stays high?

Kathy

[kjh9835]

Yes the link showed up. No distilled water on hand but will get after work tomorrow. I'll monitor it that way until I can get a kit ordered end of the week.

Kathy

[aylad]

How did the alk. level get so high anyway? Is it the well water?
I guess I could test it straight from the hose and see what I get?
Once I get the level down, is it going to be a continuing battle all Summer?
Is there a problem/damage to pool if it stays high?



The alk level would get that high from either adding chemicals to raise it, or more likely from your fill water. You could take a sample from the hose and test it to see what you get, and that will give you your answer. If your fill water is that high, then you will be battling the high alk each time you have to top off the pool with fresh water. It's not necessarily a problem for now--it won't damage the pool, but it will contribute to milky water if your calcium levels get too high, and it may make it difficult for you to change your pH if you need to. IF it is indeed the cause of the haze, then your water may just be hazy all summer.

Since you're able to see the other links now, I'm going to wait until I know you've seen this post, and then I'm going to move your post back to where Watermom had it, so that it's in the right place in the forum, and may be helpful to others that have this problem.

Janet

[kjh9835]

Ok so my well water alkalinity is 450, luckily last year and not yet this year have I had to top off the pool BUT the vacuum hooks to the hose for cleaning the bottom of the pool so each time I clean it, the level will be going up. If that's the only reason my pool is hazy, I guess I'll live with it.

I can't see using the time consuming step by step process of getting it down only to have it possibly change again when I use the hose attachment or top it off if needed. My girls are teens and float around as I do, not alot of jumping/splashing, etc except when great-nieces come over and that was just a few times last year.

If I can keep chlorine in the pool for sanitary reasons and the pH balanced to prevent damage, I'll be content. I'd like a crystal clear pool but honestly I do not want to fight an ongoing battle just because the water is hazy. If I do get it to go down, maybe adding just a little bit of water while cleaning won't increase it that much. Next year, I'll know ahead of time to treat as it fills or as soon as it's filled and maybe I can ward off the haziness.

When you move this post, you can change the title to whatever you feel will help others and I'll find it by way of my name if nothing else.

Thanks again for all your help.

Kathy

[kjh9835]

This morning the FC is deep yellow (not orange) so I'm losing some overnight
pH is 7.8

Water still hazy. Cleaned bottom, splashed around, played with aeration just to see it work and rinsed filter out last night. This morning not as much gunk on the filter, I did rinse it again and left my pump running. It's very cloudy with thunder so rain is on the way which will just un-do anything I attempt now. Waiting on weather to clear.

Kathy

[Watermom]

Go ahead and hit it with bleach again. Even though it may be raining, you don't want to go backwards.

[aylad]

Yes, follow Watermom's direction--and leave the pump running. If the filter is still catching junk, then that may well be your "haze".

Janet

[kjh9835]

Last night FC 12, pH 8.2 Water hazy. I brushed the edges and bottom but did not get in to vacuum as it was cold. I can def. see the difference in the "mist" when I stir the water, not nearly as bad. I added more bleach and tested before bed. Pump running 24 hours, filter was a bit dirty but took little time to hose off.

This morning FC 10, pH 8.2, added more bleach. Rinsed filter (again not bad).

Looking much better.

Kathy

[Watermom]

Keep adding bleach as often as you can. Also are you testing your pH while the chlorine is high? If so, it can give a falsely high pH reading. Test the pH before the next addition of bleach. Note the cl reading at the time of the pH test and post it here. Glad it is looking better. Stay at it!

[kjh9835]

FC 12 (really same as this morning, three of us agreed just now it's closer to 12 than 10)
pH 7.8

Water clear, again not as much "mist" on the bottom while swishing the water around, I can live with it. Filter barely had anything on it. Put in more bleach just now.

Question about surface skimmer......it has a partial black ring where the water hits/sits on the top edge. Rubs off but "greasy/smeared", I cleaned it off with 100% bleach on a paper towel. Algae starting? Mildew?
It was there this morning too but I forget to post about it. Water still pretty cold but I'm getting in after supper to stir up the water some more.

Will I need this new bottle of metal control stuff I bought?
Kathy

[Watermom]

Everyone's skimmer gets that way. Just wipe it off. Maybe use some baking soda on a cloth. Not a big deal.

I just rescanned this thread. (We help so many people every day, it is hard to keep each person and their pool straight.) I see that you filled from a well, but unless I missed it, you aren't having issues with greenish water suspect of having metal contamination. Right? If that is right, then you probably won't need that metal control.

[aylad]

That's what I was looking for, too....if you have not added any metal control up to this point, odds are really good that you won't need it.
Do you use the same well water for your house? Are the insides of your toilet tank stained orange or green?

Janet

[kjh9835]

Haven't used it yet but it was recommended by the chemical company (of course) since I use chlorine pucks in the floater. The water hasn't been green this year or last. Yes, it's the same well, toilet tank is fine so I'll just return it along with the rest of the stuff I bought and haven't used (nor will I now that I've found this site).

Kathy

[Watermom]

I would not use the pucks in a floater. Your CYA is already at 40 which is just about perfect as far as I am concerned. Those pucks are trichlor and they are stabilized which means that they have CYA in them. Just use bleach for your chlorine instead of the pucks. Many people get into trouble with trichor pucks. They keep using them and using them unaware that their CYA is climbing but they don't realize that the more CYA you have, the higher your chlorine level has to be to avoid an algae bloom. Then they come on the forum and post about how they cannot get rid of algae. We see it all the time. Stick with bleach.

[kjh9835]

Good to know, I did not realize they were anything but chlorine but did not read the bucket either. Good thing I haven't bought any new this year but I did put two in the pool tonight along with the bleach so I'll get rid of them. Learn something new every day.

Kathy

[kjh9835]

Did not test this morning, off for college visit all day. My husband did vacuum the bottom today and cleaned the skimmer while I was gone. I tested this evening, FC 10 and pH 7.8. I put in more bleach just as it started sprinkling. Has not been very warm last few days with rain on and off. Took the floater out too.

How long should I keep the FC over 10? I'm satisfied with the water condition being just a bit hazy so don't think I'll mess with the step by step method of getting the alk. level down.

Kathy

[Watermom]

If you have no CC and also can go from sundown to sunup without losing more than 1ppm of cl overnight, then you can let the chlorine drift down and keep it between 3-6 all the time. If you drop below 3, you risk an algae bloom. However, if both conditions in my first sentence are not true, then you need to keep the cl high for another day.

Of course, it is your pool but, I would advise going ahead and working on lowering the alk. It is a gradual process, won't get there overnight. You can just work on it a little at a time in the coming weeks.

[kjh9835]

FC 12 this morning, 10 this evening. pH 8.2 both times. Big storm came thru, had to drain some water off pool and get the leaves/twigs out. Filter not too bad this morning, worse after the storm. Will keep an eye on levels and work on alk. prob Monday. Work nights all weekend and won't have time to do much more than monitor.

Kathy

[PoolDoc]

FC 12 this morning, 10 this evening. pH 8.2 both times.

Add some acid (pH Minus or muriatic acid) as soon as you can.

When a testkit registers 8.2, it really means 8.2 or HIGHER! With your alkalinity readings, the pH is going to tend to rise pretty quickly, until the alkalinity is lower.

[kjh9835]

Did not test pool or check board yesterday, cleaned filter and got more debris out this morning. FC 10, pH 8.2, alk 300 and CYA 100!!! I removed the pucks/floater the other day and have not added anything but bleach.

Am going to have to drain more water off pool this afternoon since the skimmer isn't working b/c water level too high (another storm came thru yesterday). Is there a link/directions on using the muratic acid somewhere...how much? how often? put all in one spot or just a little all around the perimeter? in the skimmer basket?

I printed out a topic on using muratic acid step by step directions on lowering the alkalinity but it didn't tell me much. I went back to the that site but could not find the info again and I really need to read some more before I start on it.

Am going to bed, will get up this afternoon and check for replies and start in on getting pH down then alkalinity.

Also, just so you mods know, when I log in I still do not see a forum heading for "Getting Started" for new members.
I know lots of others have pools that have been up and running and are now starting to have issues. I've directed them here but if they can't find where to post, they may not ask for help.

Kathy

[PoolDoc]

I'll be making it easier to get in after the 4th. But honestly, even with all the hurdles, the folks that HAVE been able to get in have been about as much as we could keep up with! It won't help anyone if we get so pushed we give bad answers.

Regarding your post, the alkalinity page is here: http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html

You can always find it by Googling for "step by step alkalinity"

However, you don't need to worry about all the steps: you just need to lower your pH. Get some more muriatic acid; at least 2 gallons.

If you aren't already running your pump 24/7, do so. Add 1/2 gallon per 10,000 gallons (I didn't find your gallons in the post) till you are below 7.8. Wait 2 hours between doses and retest before adding more. Wear glasses and gloves when adding muriatic acid and watch out for the fumes. Pour it directly into the pool, with the bottle partly in the pool so you can hold the spout close to the water to minimize splatters and fumes.

Keep going till you get your pH to 7.2, then repost complete test results.

[kjh9835]

FC 6
pH 7.2
Alk 220
CYA 50
Hardness...zero? Should turn red but did not, very clear light blush/peach/yellow but def. not red.

This is after one half gallon of muratic acid in approx 7000 gal pool put in at noon. Pump still running 24/7.

Looking better!

Kathy

[Watermom]

Don't even worry about testing your calcium hardness since you have a soft-sided pool. Calcium not needed.

[kjh9835]

FC 10
pH 7.2

Kids got in yesterday and splashed around to stir up the remaining debris, husband and I both did manual skimming, got just about all of it and the skimmer will catch the rest since he drained off some water while I was sleeping. Filter nasty this morning but I figured on that. Water barely cloudy at all.

Thanks again for all your help.

Kathy

[kjh9835]

Although I have not posted this past week I wanted to let you all know the pool is great. I have continued to monitor the levels daily, added muratic acid when pH was high and bleach when the FC was low (only once). Kids have kept the debris out and the bottom clean, too cold to swim in due to continued rain but the water is clear, clear, clear. Have not started on reducing the alkalinity but plan to do that this week.

I am so thrilled and can now see that it takes "a few minutes a day" to maintain a pool and I am not nearly as stressed out about the financial aspect of multiple chemicals/cost/time to get to town the purchase them. I can get everything I need right in the small town where I live and it's working.

Thanks again to all. Will post if I have issues with reducing the alkalinity.

Have a great day.

Kathy

[aylad]

Congratulations, now you can see that pool care doesn't have to be a headache!! Just resist the temptation to get lazy and lax on your testing--staying on top of your pool chemistry will keep it nice and clean all summer.

Janet