Going. Insane. Need help, please

[USAMariner]

OK, I am slowly, but surely losing my mind here and hoping the wonderful folks here will be able to help me out.

We have a 22,000 gallon inground pool with a sand filter.

When I initially opened the pool and got to work on it - the usual removing debris, shocking it and of course backwashing I managed to pump out a lot of the filth. Sure enough the pool started to turn in my favor and I thought I was on to something.

I have what I can only imagine is an extraordinary strength of algae in my pool and no matter what I do, it just won't disappear.

There are parts of my pool that are blue and I can put that down to when I was skimming and scooping leaves and debris from the pool, at the same time I was also removing the algae with the net. However, the rest of the pool is green and also has what appears to be a yellowish stain around the water level.

I had the water tested at the local pool store and everything was within the normal range (I don't have the result to hand, although I do remember my ph level was 7.6)). I explained my situation to them and even showed them the pictures I had on my phone. They recommended I use algecide to help combat the problem.

Well, after using that there was no change whatsoever. I have been vacuuming the pool and brushing it for 4 days and nothing is moving. I have never had this problem before ever and I am becoming increasingly frustrated. Usually when I have added the chemicals to clan it up, when I backwash the water mes out all dirty. Now when I do that, the water comes out clear.

I have photo's for anyone that might be able to help

[Watermom]

What we need more than photos are current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit. That will help us be able to better advise you. Is this pool vinyl or gunite? Also, please tell us exactly what you have added to your pool, meaning ingredients, not just "shock." We'll see what we can do to help. Welcome to the forum, BTW.

[USAMariner]

OK, thank you in advance for your help.

This is for a vinyl pool.

When we initially started work on getting the pool up and going we had the water tested at the local pool store. The levels were extremely low and had to add a few different chemicals. This was about a month or so ago.

Initially we added 4 chlorine tabs to the skimmer basket. We then added 33lbs of Alkalinity Up and 27lbs of Hardness Plus spaced 24 hours apart. In between that 5lbs of shock was added.

Some more removal of leaves took place as well as some backwashing in which plenty of filthy water was pumped out. Slowly we started to see a difference and the water started to change color from a murky green, almost black to a light green.

More shock was added and more backwashing ensued. We had about a week of torrential rain which set us back and more shock and chlorine was added to fight the algae. We also added a quart of algaecide to the pool.

Eventually the water cleared and just lately when I have been vacuuming up minor debris that has blown in, that has process has been fine, although when vacuuming via waste the water has been clear and not murky like when we first started.

We last added another quart of algaecide and 2lbs of shock at the beginning of the week.

I have a drop based kit which I will use in the morning and then post the results here. I'll also attempt another round of vacuuming too.

[aylad]

Along with posting test results , please list the ingredient in the "shock" you're using-- dichlor or cal-hypo? Also, what's the ingredient in the algaecide? Polyquat or ammonia- based?

Don't add anymore of the algaecide for now-- it's mch better at preventing algae in low- chlorine situations than it is in killing a bloom. Chlorine, and lots of it, is what you need. Post up your results and we'll help you go from there.

Janet

[USAMariner]

OK, I went out this morning and tested the water and spent 45 minutes brushing and vacuuming the pool to waste. After that I added 4 chlorine tabs to the skimmer basket and that is it.

During vacuuming I did notice what appears to be yellow masses on the bottom of the pool (yellow algae?) and also around the water level there appears to be a 3 inch band of yellow discoloration.

The following are the ingredients that I have been using

"shock" = Dichlor (58.2%)
algaecide = polyquat (60%)
chlorine tablets = trichloro-s-triazinetrione (94.2%)


Test results:

Free Chlorine 3.8
pH 6.8 (big drop since the 7.6 that I had tested last Saturday)
Alkalinity 50 (it was around this mark that the test water turned from purple to clear with a green tint)
Bromine 4.4

The test kit that I use doesn't give a test for calcium hardness, unless there is a way to tell it from the other results?

Since the pH has dropped so much since Saturday I believe that may the source behind all of this, but it's just that even over the course of the weekend when the levels were perfect there didn't appear to be anything that was removing the algae.

Unfortunately I am working all day and into the night tonight so won't be able to check replies to the thread, but I do have plenty of shock, so if whoever is kind enough (Janet?) to answer this and suggests I add the shock then I can do that thi evening around 1030pm

[BigDave]

The Dichlor shock and Trichlor tabs may be contributing to your trouble fighting algae. Both these forms of chlorine contain stabillizer, too much stabilizer can prevent chlorine from working. Please get an accurate CYA (stabilizer) test, the good people here will need this test to help you. Get a decent test kit - you can test better than the pool store.

You should probably stop using the dichlor until you get CYA level. Your proper chlorine levels (normal and shock) will be dependent mostly on CYA level. See Ben's "BestGuessChart" http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html

The procedure for algae removal is pretty simple and takes some diligence.
Bring free chlorine to shock level and keep it there until you lose less than 1ppm overnight.
keep chlorine at shock level one more day.
Run pump 24/7 and backwash filter as needed.
Clean the gunk out (as you've been doing) by brushing and vacuuming.
Stay with it you'll get there.

A couple notes:
You'll need an unstabilized chlorine source to bring your pool to shock level and keep it there. Bleach (grocery store ultra 6% Sodium Hypochlorite) and Liquid Chlorine (pool store 12% Sodium Hypochlorite) are ideal as they are readily available and don't add other stuff to your pool.
You'll need persistence and patience - test at least twice a day (more as you can) and bring chlorine back up to shock level as necessary.
Search for Pool Calculator - it is your friend.

Good Luck.

[BigDave]

One other thing: your pH is very low you should bring it up with borax before you bring the pool to shock as it is difficult to read when you have high chlorine levels.

[USAMariner]

Thanks for your help and insight.

The test kit I use also tests for acidic levels, is this the same as the CYA test? If not, I can research and pick up a new kit that covers all the neccesary tests. Any suggestions?

For now I will take your advice and stop using the Dichlor shock and just concentrate solely on using the Trichlor and some vigorous brushing/vacuuming and backwashing.

Based on my levels above, and should my test kit I currently have not be able to test CYA, is there an acceptable amount of bleach (store bought) that can be added without doing any "damage".

Also, what is borax? I've never heard of it, and is it also available at say Walmart?

Again, thanks for your help!!

[madwil]

first, don't use the triclhlor either- it adds CYA same as dichlor... and trichlor will also cause a pH drop.
Borax is found in the grocery aisle at Walmart...
As far as how much bleach, the amount depends on your CYA. 1.4 gal Walmart bleach should add around 3.8 ppm FC in your pool- that's the big jug of walmart 6% bleach.
your target FC is based on CYA- do you have a pool store in your area that can test your water and give you an initial CYA until you get your own CYA test?

[Watermom]

Until you get a CYA level, stop using dichlor AND trichlor. For now, just use bleach as your source of chlorine. If your kit doesn't test CYA, go to a reputable pool store and ask them to test it. Then post it here. But, don't buy all the stuff they are going to push at you.

In your pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of 6% bleach will add about 2.7ppm of chlorine. Test two or three (or even more if you able) times per day and each time, take the chlorine back up to about 10 for now. (When we know what your CYA reading is, we may advise a different level but go with that for now.) Continue to sustain the high cl level until you can go from sundown one day until sunup the next day without losing more than 1ppm of cl overnight.)

Your pH needs to be brought up ASAP. A reading below 7.0 is acidic and can damage your pool. Actually, a test kit cannot differentiate below 6.8 so yours may lower than 6.8. 20 Mule Team Borax (laundry aisle at Walmart) can be used to raise pH. Start by adding a box slowly to the skimmer while the pump is running, breaking up any clumps. After 2 or 3 hours, retest pH, and add more if needed. Anywhere 7.2-7.8 is Ok, but I like 7.4-7.6.

You may want to bump your alk up a little to help control those pH swings. Add 2 lbs. at a time slowly to the skimmer. Wait a few hours, retest and redose until you get alk around 100 or so.

Do yourself a favor and get a good test kit so you won't have to rely on a pool store for readings. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C which is the same kit with larger quantities of some of the most used reagents. If you order it through the Amazon link in my signature below, the Pool Forum makes a little money on the sale which helps keep the forum online. Only buy if the seller is Amato Industries, however. Some other sellers are substituting the K-2005 which you do NOT want.

Repost with your CYA reading.

(By the way -- ignore the bromine reading. You have a chlorine pool.)

[USAMariner]

Thank you for your help everyone. Sorry I was not back on sooner, but work and other commitments kept me away.

All that I have done the last couple of days is give the pool some vigorous brushing etc and have notice the shade of algae start to lighten which is giving me some hope.

I will get the water tested ASAP (by tomorrow at the latest), but in the meantime since my FC is so low and based on the above post where I should bring it up to around 10, I will go ahead and add some bleach to the pool. Since it is so low (less than 4) I think that around 2 gallons will be safe (should bring the ppm up by about 5.8)

I will also pick up some Borax and add that to the skimmer line and retest every couple of hours until I achieve the correct reading of approx 7.4.

And of course I have the Alkalinity Up already which I will add to help steady those pH swings.

[madwil]

I wouldn't worry about the alkalinity right now...
just adjust the pH up, and keep the chlorine up, as the algae clears
The more often you can test and add chlorine, the quicker it clears!

[Watermom]

I would go ahead and raise the alk a little as I suggested above. It will help with your pH swings. Since you already have it, go ahead and use up the alkalinity up. But, in the future, don't buy any more. You can just use baking soda to raise the alk and it is cheaper.

[USAMariner]

OK, so I was finally able to get my water tested at the local pool company and here's what I got:

Free Chlorine: 5
pH: 7.4
Total Alkalinity: 70 (the pool place advised I add 10lbs on Alkalinity)
CYA: 50
Calcium Hardness: 150ppm
Total Dissolved Solids: 400
Phosphates: 300

What should my next steps be? I am still continuing to brush and vacuum as best I can.

I have no chlorine tabs in the skimmer line and I have not added any shock in 4 days.

I am off tomorrow and plan on spending as much time as possible out by the pool to make this right,

I have read in other threads about advising people to take their FC up to 20, but my test vials only go as high as 5. Is the figure of '20' figured by adding bleach into the pool and multiplying by a certain number?

I bought 2 4lb boxes of Borax and also 2 bottles of Clorox bleach (1.42 gal.) Should I add either or both? I know the borax will go into the skimmer basket, and I'm assuming that the bleach I add directly to the pool.

The Borox is what I am using as the Alk Up, correct? If not, what little I added the other night so I may to get more - regular Arm & Hammer baking soda? and how much?

oh, and should I space out when I add the chemicals, or is adding Borax and bleach at the same time safe?

[Watermom]

With a CYA of 50, you need to be shocking your pool up to 15ppm and try and hold it there as best you can. (Chlorine levels are based on CYA levels. Take a look at the Best Guess Table" in my signature below.) Test as many times a day as you can and each time add enough bleach to get the cl back up to 15. There is no such thing as testing and adding bleach too often when you are trying to clear a pool. In a 22K pool, each gallon (4 quarts) of bleach will add 2.7ppm of cl to your pool. Use that as a reference to help you determine how much bleach to add each time you test. When you get to the point where you can go from sundown one day to within 2 hours of sunrise the next day without losing more than 1ppm of cl, I'd suggest holding the cl at the shock level one more day and then you can let it drift down and keep it between 3-6 ALL the time. If you let it drop lower than 3, you'll risk another algae bloom. The key to killing algae is to sustain the high cl reading, so tomorrow test and dose every hour or two if you can. You can either pour the bleach slowly into your skimmer or slowly in front of a return jet. Both ways are fine.

Your pH is fine. Don't add any Borax at this point. Borax is used to raise pH. Baking soda is used to raise alk. It will take 3 lbs.of baking soda to raise the alk 10ppm. You can add it slowly through the skimmer while the pump is running. After several hours, retest and you can add more as needed to get to 80-120. Having said that, let chlorine be your main priority tomorrow.

Run the pump 24/7 and backwash any time your filter pressure increases 5-10 psi over clean filter pressure.

By the way -- it is ok to add bleach and Borax or bleach and baking soda one right after the other.

I would not use any more trichlor pucks or dichlor shock in this pool this year. Your CYA is already at 50 which is great, but you don't want it any higher.

Try and get the good kit I told you about in the post above. It will allow you to test higher chlorine levels and you won't have to depend on the pool store for your testing. In the meantime, you can use a dilution method to force your kit to go higher. You'll need to do this tomorrow to measure up to 15ppm of chlorine. More info at this link:

http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html

Keep us posted how things are going tomorrow!

[USAMariner]

Thank you for all your help, and I have a couple more questions.

Since my FC s at 5 and I need to get it up to 15, then adding 4 gallons will bring it right up to the 15 mark.

I will obviously have to use the method you mentioned in your sig since I have a cheaper test kit. Mix 1 part pool water and 1 part distilled water and multiplying by 2. I guess I can mix this in just a regular container/jug as long as they are measured equal, and from that water I can dip the test vial and get a reading.

I will get the pool kit you mentioned ordered by the weekend. Good to know that I won't have to use any more shock or tabs.

Basically, with the combination of the above method and continuous brushing and vacuuming I should start to see the algae disappear?

I don't know what the correct pressure is for "clean filter pressure", but when I backwashed earlier it was reading 13psi. Is that normal? Also, I have a main drain which is off due to the fact the handle broke and I am having difficulty finding a replacement, although I believe that shouldn't be a problem. I hope it isn't slowing down the process.

Also, the yellow ring I have around the water level and on my steps, is that part of the algae too? It's not metal? Can you tell by my results posted that metal is not an issue?

Sorry for so many question and if I'm repeating myself, but I've never had this much trouble before with the pool and I really am getting frustrated. We're due to have our regular pool party 4th July and I want it to be up and running.

One other thing, out of curiousity, even though the pool doesn't look inviting, with the levels I have, is it safe to swim in?

[Watermom]

4 gallons would be the right dose for now. Hit it hard tomorrow as often as possible. If you keep the chlorine up to shock level consistently, it will clear your pool.

You are right that as long as you mix equal parts of pool water and distilled water, it works for the dilution method. You don't need too big of a sample so as not to waste all the distilled water on a few tests. A shot glass or a cup of any size is fine.

If you just backwashed and the pressure is 13psi, then that is your clean pressure and sounds about right.

The yellow ring may be part of the algae. There is no way to tell if it is metal unless you test for metals.

I wouldn't swim just yet if you still have algae. Give it a few days. If you devote tomorrow to this pool and test and add more bleach every hour or two, I'm hoping that it will clear up soon. Brush, run the pump and lots of bleach.

Keep us posted. Hope by this time tomorrow evening, you can see a huge difference.

Don't worry about all the questions. That is why we are here!

[USAMariner]

Ended up with about 3 gallons of bleach so went ahead and poured half directly into the skimmer line and the other half I poured into the pool where the jet is in the deep end. I let it circulate for 30-45 minutes and then spent another 45 minutes to an hour brushing and vacuuming.

I am starting to notice a little bit of difference and have some hope that this will be all worth it.

However, the basket that I used broke, so when I was vacuuming I noticed there wasn't much pressure. I checked the skimmer line and sure enough the basket had fallen through and was blocking the actual skimmer line/return.

I do have another question (and sorry for the lack of proper terms)

The way I vacuum is I set it to waste, place one end of the hose over a jet to "blow out" the hose and then I connect that end of the hose to the disc I have and then place that in the skimmer line over the basket.

Would I better off just connecting the hose directly through the skimmer line into the hole in the bottom? I'm thinking not since the basket would catch any debris such as leaves and prevent the skimmer line getting clogged.

Heading out now for more bleach and distilled water so I can spend the afternoon fighting this beast. Hoping that I can pick up a better kit while I am out, but may have to wait until the weekend.

Will post results later.

Oh, and just to set my wife's mind at rest, all of this bleach I am adding will not do any damage to the vinyl liner or the pipes right?

[PoolDoc]

Bleach won't hurt the pipes.

It won't hurt the liner itself either, but we can't guarantee it won't bleach the liner color or print. Some liners are NOT chlorine resistant. It's a long story, but there is no way any of us have found for you to discover in advance whether you have a problem liner or not. I have some indication that most of Plastimayd's liners are properly resistant, but I don't know that for sure.

However, adding bleach -- which mixes instantly -- you are much less likely to have problems than with solid forms of chlorine.

Ben

[Watermom]

And, just so you know, bleach is 6% sodium hypochlorite. Many pool stores sell liquid chlorine which is 12.5% sodium hypochlorite. People don't worry about liquid pool store chlorine damaging their liner, but when they hear the word "bleach" they get concerned.

[USAMariner]

UPDATE:

So, after doing what I've been doing all day and seeing some change, although maybe not as much as I had hoped, I went ahead and picked up some Vitamin C tablets since it appeared that the white plastic around the skimmer line in the pool had discolored, not to mention around the water level in the pool.

The tablets removed the stain just like that and I am really beginning to wonder whether the problem in the pool is more stain based than algae based.

Is there a cheap method to removing the stain from the liner? Maybe I can just pour a whole bottle of tablets into the skimmer line? (kidding)

[aylad]

Yep, here it is....I don't think it's cheap, but here's the process in a nutshell:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?7923-Stain-removal-via-ascorbic-acid-treatment

Janet

[USAMariner]

OK,

It is most definitely stain related.

I poured a whole bottle of Vitamin c pills into the bottom of a sock and crushed them up. Got into the shallow end and proceeded to scrub along the wall, the steps and then dropped the sock to the floor, stood on it and dragged it along the bottom and watched as the stain disappeared and the blue liner showed through.

Aside from the method outlined in the previous post, is there a solution that I can buy to add to the water and let it works its magic?

[aylad]

I'll let somebody else answer that question, but wanted to caution you that adding acid to the pool will drop your pH, so make sure it doesn't get too low.....

Janet

[Watermom]

In that post that Janet linked for you, you can buy powdered Vitamin C in bulk. I've never had to do this but perhaps that is more practical for you than crushing up tabs. Let me ask Ben to pop onto this thread and offer his $0.02.