Chlorine Locked?

[reesie]

We used Baquacil for 15 years. The first 12 were great but the last 3 were nightmares. Last year we barely swam at all. We spent a fortune on chemicals last year and finally gave up in late July and on the advice of the pool store, let all levels of Baquacil go to 0. We closed the pool with no chemicals added. They advised to start fresh with massive does of chlorine at the start of this season. The pool was green when we closed it.
It was green when we opened it as expected. Our pool is 18x33 above ground, 15,000 gallons. We put approx. 12 gallons 6% bleach in it over a week when we opened it. It turned a flourescent green and then after shocking and putting 3 inch tablets in a dispenser got a milky color. We took a water sample in. Ph and alkalinity were high. Chlorine was non existent. They said to lower ph and shock it. They said there was no Baquacil in it. We shocked it again. (3 lbs). We took another sample. Ph was 7 alk was 160 hardness was 80 free cl 0 tot cl 1.8 stab 20. They said put 1lb. ph up, wait 1 hour and put 3 lbs. stabilizer, then tomorrow put 21 lbs. calcium hardness increaser in 2 doses , wait six hours and then put 3 lbs. shock after 8:30 pm. We did all this and also had 3 3 inch tablets in dispenser and took another sample 4 days later. Results: alk-160 ph-7.2 cya-30 tot hard-80 tot cl-1.7 fr cl-0. The pool store said to let alk come down by itself. They said to shock with 3lbs shock that night. They also said to crush a chlorine tablet and put in skimmer and bring another sample the next day. They also said to put 21 lbs. calcium hardness increaser. We did.
We brought another sample yesterday. Results: alk-160 ph-6.8 cya-30 tot hard-90 tot cl-7.8 fr cl-0
They said put 1 lb. ph up. Wait 1 hour, put 3 lbs. NON Chlorine Shock, crush another 3 in. tablet and put in skimmer. Don't put any more calcium hardness increaser right now. Bring another sample Monday or Tuesday.
Help! Why can't I get any free chlorine reading? I'm wondering if I can trust the advice I'm getting. I was told to put ph down in to lower my alk (160) when my ph was 6.8 which is already low for ph. I'm confused.

[Watermom]

To make it easier, I'm going to post all your numbers in a list:
TA (alk) 160
pH 6.8
CYA 30
CH (calcium hardness) 90
TC 7.8
FC 0

Enough with the pool store having you throw everything but the kitchen sink in your pool. It would help you a lot to read some of the threads in the Baquacil section of the forum. Many people have written about their conversions there. The basic of it is that you keep testing and adding bleach as many times a day as you can and each time you add bleach, take it back up to shock level. For a pool with a CYA of 30, that would mean up to 15ppm. Try and sustain this reading. You have already found that your pool will turn all kinds of shades of green; that is to be expected, but keep hitting it with bleach. Also run your pump 24/7 and backwash as needed when the filter pressure rises. When you get to the point where your water clears up and you can go from sundown one evening til sunup the next morning without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine, you'll be almost there. For reference, in a 15K pool, each quart of 6% bleach will add 1ppm of cl. That will help you to determine how much chlorine to add each time you test.

You're going to need a good kit. Take a look a the Amazon link in my signature below. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C which is the same kit with larger quantities of some of the most used reagents. Well worth the money and it will make your maintenance easier. Until that time, you can use the dilution method to measure higher numbers than your current kit will most likely read. More info about that here:

http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/how-to-test-your-pool-without-a-good-testkit.html

Most critical right now is your pH level. You need to get it above 7.0 ASAP as any reading below that is acidic and can damage your pool. Add some 20 Mule Team Borax (laundry aisle at Walmart) slowly to your skimmer while the pump is running, breaking up any clumps. Test pH a few hours later and add more until you get the pH between 7.2-7.8. I'd start with a box at a time. After your pH starts to move, you might want smaller additions. By the way, high chlorine levels will give false pH readings, so get this pH adjusted before you start shocking the pool with bleach.

Don't worry about anything else right now. Don't use any more pucks, non-chlorine shock, calcium hardness increaser, etc. (In fact you don't ever need calcium hardness increaser ever again. Vinyl pools don't need it.) Only need lots of bleach and some Borax.

If you follow these steps, you're pool will clear up. After your conversion is complete, you'll want to change your sand, but not until then. Keep us posted how things are going. And welcome to the forum. Thanks for becoming a subscriber. We appreciate it!

[reesie]

Thank you for your reply. I ordered the test kit.
We thought the conversion process was complete when the pool cleared up. It is crystal clear but has had a free chlorine reading of 0 consistently. We already changed the sand (at the pool store's recommendation)at the end of last season and again last week. I had read the Baquacil conversion posts here but thought when the pool cleared up we were through with the conversion.
We will take another sample tomorrow since I can't get a decent reading with the strips I have and then try to raise the ph. I believe the ph is between 7.0 and 7.2 if I can believe my strips. We just put ph up in Saturday night after the pool store test.

[Watermom]

How much bleach are you putting in at a time? How often are you adding it? Keep an eye on that pH. Don't let it drop below 7.0.

[aylad]

You're not quite finished until uou can go from sundown to sunup without losing more than 1 ppm chlorine. Even though the ppool is clear you may still have a little more time left before you achieve that step....

Janet

[reesie]

Okay, I received the Taylor kit 2 days ago. I tested last night at 9:00pm
fcl 6
tcl 25
ccl 19
alk 160
ch 250
ph 7.8
cya 50
I tested again this morning at 6:00 am:
fcl 6
tcl 19
ccl 19
I didn't lose any from sundown to sunup but I lost a lot from 5:00 pm til 9:00 pm. I put 4 gallons bleach in at 5:00 pm.
Now what do I need to do to lower the fcl & tcl and get rid of the ccl? Do I need to lower the ph to below 7.6? Is that the next step? Would I go back to putting a non chlorine shock in?

[CarlD]

For the moment, don't worry about pH. Yeah, it's high, but that may be due to the TC being so high and it's falsely elevating the reading.

Do not, not, NOT add anything but bleach/Liquid Chlorine at this point unless Ben, and ONLY Ben, AKA PoolDoc says to do so!


In my opinion, you need to raise your FC to 15, minimum, and keep it there. Given that your CYA is 50, at the top end of the 30-50 scale, you could even take FC to 20ppm safely.

You still have stuff you have to get rid of in your water even if the Bacquagoop reading is zero. It's still all over your system, and you have to get rid of it.
That is why, I think, you have such high CC levels. You should see, after a few days, the CC reading come down. When it's zero and stays there, you are finally done with your conversion.

At that time, you'll have to clean out your filter. If it's a sand filter you'll need to replace the sand, absolutely. If it's DE, you'll have to clean the grids, maybe even soak them in Muriatic Acid (I'm not the DE or cartridge whiz). If it's a cart, I don't know if you can clean the element or have to replace it, but if you can I expect at a minimum you'll have to soak it for a day or two in electric dishwasher detergent. Any cart users out there that have done the Baq to Chlorine conversion?

Carl

[PoolDoc]

These two threads:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?11734-Chlorine-Locked
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?11784-first-post-aciam-converting-pool-from-baquacil-to-chlorine
seem to be both products of an issue I don't remember dealing with before: pools with a LONG history of Baquacil use, before conversion.

I talked with "Aciam" at length last night, and agreed upon the following:

#1 - Test with OTO ; ignore FC / CC differientiation
#2 - Dose to dark yellow (~10ppm); allow it to drop to medium yellow (~2 ppm)
#3 - Continue filtering 24/7
(Aciam's water is clear, but some sort of surface debris is forming continuously and being collected on her skimmer sox)
#4 - Dose with polyquat that the FIRST signs of algae (slippery sides on Aciam's vinyl AG pool)
#5 - If no resolution after a few days, consider drain and refill (AG pools ONLY!)

My **guess** is that there's a huge accumulation of Baqua-goo from the years of Baquacil use, and that -- whatever else Baqua-goo is, chemically speaking -- it is very resistant to chlorine oxidation. The high CC levels are a result of slow (but sure) oxidation by chlorine.

What's weird is that her FAS-DPD readings did NOT match her OTO test results at all. I trust OTO more than DPD, so I made the recommendation above. However, I had to tell her I really have no idea how cleanup will take. I've emailed Chem_Geek to see if he's collected any info on this.

Ben

PS: It sounds like "reesie" is in the same situation. Ben

[reesie]

I tested again when I got off work:
fcl 2.5
tcl 25
ccl 22.5
alk 160
ph 7.6
cya 50
I added 4 gallons bleach at 8:30 pm. Will test again in 1 hour.
I didn't quite understand Pooldoc's instructions. I'm new to all this chlorine stuff. Do I need to go get another different kind of test kit for #1?
Could you explain #2 more? Is that part of the OTO test kit colors?
I understand 3. My water is crystal clear, also. No algae. My 9 year old is also upset she can't swim. She was swimming when we first opened it, before we started adding all the large amounts of bleach.
I also understand 4 & 5.
I hope it deosn't come to #5. I live in a small town with a municipal water system and they absolutely forbid filling swimming pools.
Thank you all for your help.

[CarlD]

The simplest kind of drop testing is the kit that has a plastic cell marked for chlorine/bromine on the left with a yellow background and pH on the right, with a red background. It's sold in pool stores and K-Mart, WalMart and other places. It can run $5-$15 depending on the brand and features. WalMart used to have a GREAT one by HTH that also did total alk, hardness, and CYA testing, that ran about $12-$15. But the typical inexpensive kit is fine as long as it says OTO or OTO/pH
The chlorine test (forget about the bromine--that's for bromine pools) is called OTO. You fill to the line, add 4 or 5 drops (depending the brand) and compare the color of the water to the yellow background to read the total chlorine level.
pH on the other side is just the same.

What Ben is saying is that he doesn't trust the reading you are getting (not that it's your fault or you are doing anything wrong) but that he wants you to test the water with the OTO test instead. The dark yellow color he's talking about is much darker than the range of the background on the test tube (called a test CELL). That water color should be dark yellow. After yellow, as the chlorine gets more concentrated, it goes orange then brown.
It's not very precise, but it's very simple and very rigorous, in other words it pretty much always works.

So...if the water is NOT dark yellow in the OTO cell, add bleach to the pool until it comes out that way. If it IS dark yellow (as I said, much yellower than the cell's background) it's already where Ben wants it. Then just let time pass and don't add any bleach, letting the color go to medium yellow (this all may take a day or two).

What I don't know is how much Polyquat Ben wants you to use. Usually 1-2 ounces is enough--if your pool is clear. But what is clear is to do it if the pool sides feel slippery.

I THINK, but don't know, that if the water "behaves" it will be safe to swim.

I hope this helps clear up Ben's instructions.

Carl

[PoolDoc]

Hi Reesie;

Just heard from Chem_Geek. He's seen some similar situations on other forums he frequents -- and as best he can tell, the situation is just what I guessed.

You've used Baquacil for years, and have years of "Baqua-poop" or residue from Baquacil in your pool. This stuff is HARDER to break down then Baquacil itself. Apparently, it can take up to 6 weeks to complete the conversion. Richard (Chem_Geek) thinks using sodium percarbonate doses might help, but this is a bit of a guess, too.

Here are links, if you want to try that:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Percarbonate-Sodium_Percarbonate_30lbs.html
http://www.soapgoods.com/Sodium-Percarbonate-FB-p-1001.html

The bad news is, I don't think it's safe to swim while your CC levels are so how. If you read aciam's thread, you'll see it hurt her hands to just stick them in the water.

The really bad news is, I can't tell you much of anything definite:
+ Nobody who knows just what "Baqua-poop" (residue from Baquacil use) is is talking or publishing. ICI Americas, who patented the product, probably knows. But they haven't made that info available.
+ So . . . nobody knows what's forming when chlorine breaks Baqua-poop down. Observation (test, smell) indicates that it's some sort of noxious chloramine.
+ And, since nobody knows what it is, nobody is sure how to go about breaking it down faster.
+ Worse, this is such an uncommon event, that nobody has good guidelines to offer you.

Your options:
#1 - Keep chlorinating. It will eventually break down and go away, but it may take weeks more.
#2 - Buy sodium percarbonate and add that, too. (Let us help you with the doses if you do this)
#3 - Add copper sulfate. Copper sulfate (a pool algaecide) breaks down Baquacil; it may break down Baqua-Poop. It probably won't make anything worse. You may be able to get it at Lowes as "Root destroyer" in the plumbing section; you can buy it from the chemistry store link. Again, let me help you with doses if you do this.
#4 - Drain and refill.

I wish I had better news for you.

Ben

[CarlD]

Reesie,

I am so sorry. Usually the Bacq conversion works nicely however this is one of two we're seeing that hasn't, and another pool forum, TFP saw the same thing earlier in the spring. We haven't seen this before.

You may want to consider going the Sodium PerCarbonate root, but only Ben and Chem_Geek can guide you on that.

Carl.

[waterbear]

The sodium percarbonate will oxidize the biguanide and goo in your pool. However, it will also destroy any chlorine and chloramines present since it creates hydrogen peroxide when dissolved. Therefore, you might need to dose two or three times with the percarbonate for it to be effective if you have high levels of combined chlorine presently. The first applicaton with get used up destroying the chlorine compounds and subsequent applications can then attack the biguanide and residue in the pool.
Normal dosing is 1 lb per 1000 gallon water and since it will cause the pH to rise the addition of 3/4 lb of dry acid for every 1 lb of percarbonate added will keep the pH in line. So for a 10k gallon pool you would need 10 lbs of percarbonate and about 7 lbs of dry acid for each dose. Turn off the pump and broadcast the perscarbonate on the water surface then immediately broadcast the dry acid. The stuff may 'fizz' and cause gunk to float to the surface.
Skim out as much of this as possible then turn on the pump and filter 24/7 for 48 hours. You should have no or little chlorine in the pool at this point and should clean the filter and repeat the process again.
If the water is not clear after another 48 hours of filtration repeat again.

Some people do not add the dry acid initially and let the percarbonate work at the higher pH then lower the pH after the conversion I do not personally know which method is more effective but do know that it does work either way.


At this point what little biguanide remains in the water and filter should be easily oxidized by chlorine if any is left so add chlorine and see how much CC is present or if the water turns colors when you add the chlorine. Once conversion is complete change out your filer medium, be it sand, cartridge, or DE. NO simple backwash here. Break down the filer and clean and soak everything. Repalce the sand, carts or DE completely.

Do not swim in the pool until conversion is compete. The water can be irritating to say the least!

[CarlD]

Thanks, Evan!

This has had us all stumped!

Carl

(PS: Your sig almost sounds like a Jethro Tull line...:) )

[waterbear]

Thanks, Evan!


(PS: Your sig almost sounds like a Jethro Tull line...:) )

Saw them in the 70s and was/am an avid fan of Ian Andeson! The lyric is "I may make you feel but I can't make you think" from Thick as a Brick. However, my signature is actually a play on the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

[CarlD]

Evan, I know the lyric well, and it's ALSO a play on the "lead a horse to water" adage. Never saw them live but my freshman roomie and I played Thick, Aqualung and "Dark Side" (Floyd) pretty much constantly--that was 1973/74.

Carl

[waterbear]

but my freshman roomie and I played Thick, Aqualung and "Dark Side" (Floyd) pretty much constantly--that was 1973/74.

Carl

WOW! You are old!:p



(I was a freshman in 72/73 but then again I went to college when I was 3!:p ;))

reesie, sorry about the thread hijack. If the mods here did their job it would not happen! (Just kidding, the mods here do a GREAT job. Being a Mod is not easy and I salute them!)

[CarlD]

WOW! You are old!:p

D___ Straight! And proud of it!



(I was a freshman in 72/73 but then again I went to college when I was 3!:p ;))

reesie, sorry about the thread hijack. If the mods here did their job it would not happen! (Just kidding, the mods here do a GREAT job. Being a Mod is not easy and I salute them!)

Them were crazy days!..not that I miss them much, other than being a lot thinner, but a lot more broke! (College meant a state school with NY state scholarship to help).

Carl

[reesie]

I got the OTO kit Saturday morning. Pooldoc was right. The results did not match the results from the Taylor kit. According to the OTO kit, I had 5 ppm fcl. I added bleach till dark yellow ( much darker than the cell in the test kit) & then let it drop. I was trying for medium yellow but it dropped to 1.5 ppm. I used the pool calculator and the reference amount Watermom gave me above and put 1 gallon of bleach in tonight to bring the fcl back up to around 5.
ph is 7.4
cya is 50
alk is still 160
I haven't checked tcl or ccl
What should I do now?
Does it sound like we may be reaching the end?
Will we be able to use the 3 inch tablets this year? We had already bought a big bucket of them (40 lbs.) I wish I had found this forum before I bought them.
Thanks, everyone!

[reesie]

Hi, I just realized there are posts that I hadn't seen. I was really busy this weekend between the pool and taking my 9 yr. old to King's Dominion (Class Trip) and getting ready for 3rd grade Graduation. (I didn't know they had Graduation from 3rd Grade!)
Somehow I missed the 2nd page of posts.
Wow!
I thought I was just about done!
I really appreciate all the time and trouble everyone has gone to to help with this problem.

[reesie]

I tested my pool again tonight with both the Taylor kit and the OTO kit. I actually got the same results with both kits.
fcl 1
tcl 3
ccl 2
ph 7.4
these were just from the Taylor
alk 140
cya 50
Is it possible we have almost conquered this? We actually started this last year and gave up and started again the first week in May, 2011.
With the readings the way they are right now, do I add more bleach ( We added 1 gallon last night) or should I go with non chlorine shock to try to get rid of the rest of the combined chlorine?
Or none of the above?

[waterbear]

Add bleach to 15 ppm and report your test results.

[Watermom]

Looks like you are gaining on it. Stay the course!

[aciam]

Hi Reesie - I just saw your post to my thread and I find it so interesting that we both used the CDX system ( as well as those oxidizer tablets) these last few years - even more evidence that the CDX is playing a role in why our conversions are not going as planned.

Every time I think I am gaining on my pool, it backfires. For example, I had a day when my FC was 5 and CC was 0.5 - and then the next morning it was 4 and 1. When I then added bleach ( to keep my FC high like is recommended) my FC only raised to 5 but my CC went to 6! It has happened again today. Very discouraging.

I read on another forum one person who said it took 2 months to convert. And I would rather not wait that long.

I have ordered the sodium percarbonate and will try it in a 2 gallon or so bucket at the recommendation of chem geek before I put it in the pool. At the same time, I am making preparations to do a drain and refill. This is a really busy week for me with work so nothing will happen quickly, but feel free to follow along on my posts - I will certainly let you know if I have any significant luck with the percarbonate! Hopefully your conversion continues to move in the right direction. aciam

[reesie]

I added 4 gallons bleach last night. I didn't get a chance to test until 1:00 pm today. It's not very sunny today.
OTO results:
fcl >5
tcl >5

Taylor:
fcl 15
tcl 15
ccl 0
ph 7.4
alk 140
cya 50
Another interesting note: We had a thunderstorm that knocked the current off. My husband went out to the pool to turn the pump back on and decided to take the cover off of the filter before he turned everything back on. Now, we just changed the sand on 5/29/2011 at the pool store's recommendation. The water has been completely clear since around 5/15/2011. There has not been any debris or algae anywhere in the pool. When my husband opened the filter, there was a bunch of gunk in the filter. Baqua-poop?
So, what next?
Change the sand, let the chlorine levels drop and swim?
or am I being too optimistic?

[reesie]

Here I go again. Just for curiosity I took a sample to the pool store (around 5:00 pm) and checked it again myself around 8:30 pm with the Taylor kit. We had another thunderstorm with heavy downpours. The readings changed a lot from this afternoon.
fcl 5 (pool store 3.8)
tcl 10 (pool store 9.8)
ccl 5 (pool store told me I didn't have any combined chlorine)
alk 140 (140)
cya 50 (40)
ph 7.4 (7.4)

Where do I go now? I was hoping I was through with the combined chlorine...especially when I still didn't have any at 1:00 pm this afternoon after adding the bleach last night.
or did the rain have anything to do with that?

[Watermom]

Stay the course for one more day and see if the CC is still no more than 0.5.

[reesie]

On 6/16/2011( Thurs.) I added 3 more gallons bleach to bring it above 15 ppm fcl around 9:00 pm.
Tested noon on 6/17/2011 (Fri.)
fcl 10
tcl 15
ccl
5

6:00pm
fcl 7.5
tcl 15
ccl 7.5
I didn't have any more bleach, all local stores were out! even checked the next town. They were out too. No shipments due until Sat. or Mon. They weren't sure which.
I put 3lbs. non chlorine shock in at 8:30 pm.
I bought calcium hypochlorite (65%) today since we are having a hard time finding bleach. I never knew there was a shortage of bleach!
I'm leaning towards draining and filling since nothing else seems to be working. The town water authority is not going to be happy.
We came home from work yesterday and found that our pump had burnt up so we had to buy a new pump. It doesn't appear to be our year!

6/18/2011
I tested:
Taylor kit: pool store:
10:00 am 12:00 noon
fcl 7.5 0.5
tcl 10 7.0
ccl 2.5 6.5
ph 7.2 7.2
alk 120 120
cya 30 20
th 120

I don't know what to do now? It doesn't seem to be getting better. The combined chlorine is not 25 like it was (if that reading was correct) but it's still not going away.

[chem geek]

It's too bad we don't yet know if sodium percarbonate will work at this late stage. Otherwise I'd suggest it. Does the pool store near you carry any small containers of ProTeam® System Support? Or can you order a small jar from The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Percarbonate-Sodium_Percarbonate_2lbs.html). You could then try a small amount in a 2-gallon bucket of your pool water -- about 1/8th of a teaspoon -- to see if it can oxidize the CC.

Another alternative would be your own combination of sodium carbonate with hydrogen peroxide since sodium percarbonate is technically one part sodium carbonate with 1.5 parts hydrogen peroxide. By weight, 1 pound of sodium percarbonate is 0.675 pounds sodium carbonate and 0.325 pounds hydrogen peroxide. So you can use pH Up product or Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda for the sodium carbonate. This would then be closer to 1/16th of a teaspoon of pH Up / Washing Soda. As for the hydrogen peroxide, you can easily get 3% solution from a drug store (though you probably have more concentrated as oxidizer for your pool, we don't know its concentration for sure). The amount needed is 1 teaspoon.

If you have FC from chlorine, then the hydrogen peroxide will neutralize that so we'll need to increase the dose accordingly. The rough rule-of-thumb is that a volume of 3% hydrogen peroxide neutralizes the same volume of 6% bleach. So for the 2 gallon bucket, 10 ppm FC gets neutralized by 1/4 teaspoon of hydrogen peroxide.

So let's make this simple and have you add pool water to a clean 2-gallon bucket. Wait one hour and then measure FC and CC. Add 1/8th of a teaspoon of pH Up / Washing Soda, mix, then add 2-1/4 teaspoons of 3% hydrogen peroxide and mix. Then wait for 1 hour. Then measure the FC and CC. Wait for 8 hours and measure again. Wait for 24 hours from your initial addition and measure again. This dosage is double the amount recommended by Orenda, but should tell us whether or not sodium percarbonate will work. You should definitely see the FC going to 0, but we'll see if the CC drops as well. If it does drop enough, then we'd add chlorine back into the bucket using 6% bleach, 1/4 teaspoon at a time, until FC registers again and make sure that CC doesn't return.

[PoolDoc]

In the earlier conversations I had with Chem_Geek regarding this situation, the possibility that you were breaking down stuff trapped on the filter came up. The fact that you had so much junk on the filter makes that possibility even more significant.

So . . . besides doing the 'chemistry experiment' above, you might want to
#1 - Change your sand, &
#2 - Use skimmer socks (Amazon link: Jed Industries 80-852 Pool Skimmer Sock (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LTA5OW/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=B004LTA5OW) )

BTW, if Chem_Geek's experiment works, you can get washing soda at Walmart, and can use Baquashok for the peroxide source. So the results may lead directly to a practical solution.

[reesie]

We're doing the experiment above. We put the 2 gallons pool water in a clean bucket, waited one hour. Tested 0 fcl, 7.5 tcl, 7.5 ccl. Put ph up, mix, put hydrogen peroxide, mix, waited 1 hour, measured, fcl 0, tcl 5, ccl 5. We'll see what we get tonight after waiting 8 hours then tomorrow night after 24 hours.
Also, we're going to change the sand ( I had told my husband the other day that I thought maybe that was part of the problem since all of that junk was in the filter). I'm glad to know I'm not totally alone in my thinking! I'm also going to get the filter socks. I never heard of them before.
I'll post the results.

[CarlD]

Skimmer socks are also called "filter savers". Brand doesn't matter.

I find bleach, washing soda and borax all at the local supermarket, which is far closer than the nearest WalMart.

Carl

[reesie]

Tonight's results on the bucket of pool water were:
fcl 0
ccl 0
I did the test twice and it was totally clear. I'll check again at 9:00 pm tomorrow night.
After checking tomorrow night, Chem geek said to add 1/4 tsp. bleach at a time until fc registers again and make sure that cc doesn't return (hopefully). How long would we wait between adding each 1/4 tsp. of bleach?

[chem geek]

So far, so good. It looks like it does reduce CC taking somewhere between 1 and 8 hours to do so. After you start adding bleach after measuring tomorrow night, you can measure within an hour and then add more bleach. Repeat until you start to measure FC that should then hold and we'll see if the CC returns or not.

If the CC returns after adding bleach, then that would mean the hydrogen peroxide was just acting as a reducing agent to get rid of CC, but then adding a chlorine oxidizer again would recreate CC. If instead the CC doesn't return after adding bleach, then that means the hydrogen peroxide oxidizes the CC to truly get rid of it. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the latter is what is happening.

[waterbear]

So
If the CC returns after adding bleach, then that would mean the hydrogen peroxide was just acting as a reducing agent to get rid of CC, but then adding a chlorine oxidizer again would recreate CC. If instead the CC doesn't return after adding bleach, then that means the hydrogen peroxide oxidizes the CC to truly get rid of it. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the latter is what is happening.

Also, if the CC returns but at a lower level then the process is working but might need to be repeated.

[reesie]

Here are the readings tonight.
7:00 pm
fcl 0
tcl 0
ccl 0
added 1/4 tsp. bleach

8:00 pm
fcl 0
tcl 0
ccl 0
added 1/4 tsp. bleach

9:00 pm
fcl 2.5
tcl 2.5
ccl 0
added 1/4 tsp. bleach

10:00 pm
fcl 4
tcl 4
ccl 0
added 1/4 tsp. bleach
That's going to be it until tomorrow night after work.

[chem geek]

Oh my gosh! This might actually be working!!! This is great news. 1/4 teaspoon of 6% bleach in 2 gallons would normally raise the FC by 10 ppm so I'm not sure what's consuming so much chlorine after you start measuring it. The reaction with the remaining hydrogen peroxide should be fast which explains the first couple of hours of readings, but after that I would have expected chlorine addition at 9 PM to register more like 12.5 ppm at 10 PM. At least you aren't getting CC readings.

[reesie]

Tonights readings:
6:30 pm
fcl 2.5
tcl 2.5
ccl 0

7:30
fcl 7.5
tcl 7.5
ccl 0

8:30
fcl 10
tcl 10
ccl 0

9:30
fcl 15
tcl 15
ccl 0

Most of these tests I performed 2 times to double check
No combined chlorine in any of the checks!
So what now?

[chem geek]

Well now you can use sodium percarbonate in your pool. I think you just got the pH Up and hydrogen peroxide, neither of which will be in sufficient quantities for your pool. So you'll have to buy sodium percarbonate. You can get it at The Chemistry Store (http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=100513&child=100581). As for how much to get for your 15,000 gallon pool, if you want to you could redo your experiment with a half-dose or even a quarter-dose. That might save you money. The dosage I had you do was roughly 1 pound per 1000 gallons. That would be 15 pounds or about $40 worth of sodium percarbonate. I suspect it won't take that much. If you redo the bucket experiment (you don't need to wait as long now that we know that the CC is eliminated in less than 8 hours), then that could save you money if you find you only need half or one-quarter as much -- up to you.

[PoolDoc]

Richard, can't she just buy "washing soda" at Walmart and "BaquaShok" at her pool store?

[waterbear]

Richard, can't she just buy "washing soda" at Walmart and "BaquaShok" at her pool store?

I would think that it would work since the net effect of adding sodium percarbonate is adding hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate.
The only thing is that the baqua shock is a 'stabilized' peroxide (most likely stabilized with citric acid) but I would think the sodium carbonate would raise the ph enough to destabilize it.

[reesie]

I will do whatever you guys think is best.
We have let the chlorine levels drop in the pool for the last week and we have been swimming. We haven't had any ill effects. The combined chlorine has been lower lately. The funny thing is since several days before we started swimming, we have not smelled any chlorine smell outside, not even at the pool. When I tested the pool 2 days ago, the combined chlorine was 2 and the fcl was 5.
Today the fcl was 3 and the ccl was 0. Several days ago, my cya was low so I broke up a 3 inch tab and put it in and put another tab in the floater since I didn't have any stabilizer except in the tabs. I thought my combined chlorine would go through the roof when I put the tabs in but so far so good.
If I need to get the sodium percarbonate and dry acid, where would I get dry acid?
Follow the procedure and then clean the filter, replace the sand and hopefully, we're good to go!

[chem geek]

Richard, can't she just buy "washing soda" at Walmart and "BaquaShok" at her pool store?

Yes, Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda (careful: NOT the laundry detergent) can be used for the "pH Up" sodium carbonate and "BaquaShock" can be used for the hydrogen peroxide. However, to dose this properly, we need to know the concentration of hydrogen peroxide in the product. From this link (http://www.baquacil.com/Products/coreProducts.htm), it says it is 27% hydrogen peroxide. So remember what I wrote earlier that by weight, 1 pound of sodium percarbonate is 0.675 pounds sodium carbonate and 0.325 pounds hydrogen peroxide. So 0.325 pounds hydrogen peroxide is 1.2 pounds of BaquaShock. If I assume a density of around 1.1 g/ml, then 1.2 pounds of BaquaShock is around 17-1/2 fluid ounces or a little over 2 cups.

So let's use the 1 pound sodium percarbonate per 2000 gallons amount so for 15,000 gallons this would be 5 pounds of washing soda (sodium carbonate) and about 4 quarts of BaquaShock. The washing soda will raise the TA by 38 ppm and could raise the pH to 8.8 but the BaquaShock will lower the pH as it oxidizes whatever is left in the pool. Hopefully you don't have a lot of metal in your water since the higher pH could stain. So add this recommended amount of washing soda and BaquaShock and wait 24 hours with the pump running the entire time, though technically you saw results in your bucket test after 8 hours. You should then measure zero CC. You'll then need to start adding bleach until you get an FC reading.

[PoolDoc]

Hey Chem_Geek, Waterbear;

If you can work this out as a recipe - so many boxes of A&G washing soda and so many jugs of BaquaShok per 10,000, it could potentially help a bunch of people.

Just sayin'

[chem geek]

We don't really know if the 1 pound per 2000 gallons (5 pounds per 10,000 gallons) is the proper dosage. While it looks like it might work for reesie's situation, it looks like aciam's situation is more severe. At any rate, for this dosage rate this translates to 3.4 pounds (1 55-ounce box) of Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda and 11 cups (about 3 quarts; 3/4 of one gallon) of BaquaShock per 10,000 gallons.

I suppose one could start with this sort of dosing and then measure the pool water after 24 hours to see if there is still CC in which case one can add more.

[reesie]

My husband and child wanted to swim over the weekend so we waited until 4:00 pm today to add the washing soda and BaquaShock. I tested before we added them.
fcl 3
tcl 5
ccl 2
alk 170
cya 30
ph 7.5


I tested again at 9:00 pm
fcl 1
tcl 1
ccl 0
alk 200
ph off the scale

Chem_geek and Waterbear said wait 24 hours and start adding chlorine, if it's 0 ccl, until it holds a fcl reading. Lower ph before adding chlorine or after? How much chlorine should I add at a time and how often? I have cal hypo and 3 inch tablets and bleach ( if the store doesn't run out again!).
Then clean filter thoroughly and change sand.
Again, thanks for the help! All of you guys are the best!

[reesie]

I tested 0 fcl and 0 tcl and 0 combined chlorine so now I'm going to start adding chlorine. Any advice as to how much to add at a time and how often?

[chem geek]

You'll want to add Cyanuric Acid to the water as well as chlorine or else sunlight will break down your chlorine too quickly. Your 3" tablets will add both chlorine and CYA, but will take too long to add either. The Cal-Hypo is fine if your Calcium Hardness (CH) isn't high and the bleach is also fine. So you'll need to get some pure CYA or perhaps could get some Dichlor which dissolves quickly and can be added to give you both chlorine and CYA (at least some) initially. Up to you -- whatever is easiest for you to get. Most people get pure CYA and put it in a sock or panty hose to hang over a return or in the skimmer for faster dissolving (some add it slowly to the skimmer to get caught in the filter, but that usually takes longer to dissolve).

If you have some CYA in the water, you can get your FC up to around 3 ppm to start with, not more than 5 ppm, but just note that it may drop quickly initially until you get more CYA in the water so you'll probably be adding chlorine multiple times per day the first day or two.

[reesie]

I have good news and bad news...I think. I don't have any combined chlorine so far. But I also don't seem to be having any luck at getting my free chlorine or total chlorine levels up.
My cya is 60
ph 7.6
alk 150
the most I've gotten the fcl to is 1, tcl was the same
I've added 16 ozs. cal hypo (65%) at a time
Tonight we added 24 ozs.
Should I go ahead and change the sand now or wait until I can get it to hold a fcl reading?

[waterbear]

Change the sand! There is probably a lot of gunk in their creating the chlorine demand.