New pool owner, need some guidance please

[SteveInFLA]

Hi,

I moved into a house with a pool last year and I have no idea how I kept the pool looking decent most of last summer, I just dumped in chlorine when it looked like I needed it and put some 3" tabs in the Hayward CL200 feeder.

But this season, I'm already having a very hard time keeping the algae away, and even when I got rid of the green, the water has been very cloudy and the green seems to just keep trying to come back. I do have the drop and vial type test kit and tested today. Below are the results and other info.

Also, last year I took a sample to a local pool supplier (chain) and some kid said I needed about $180. bucks worth of all kinds of bags of stuff. I chose not to listen to him and just got some more chlorine and tabs. I really need to get this under control and maintain it as inexpensively as possible as money is very tight at the moment. I really want to learn all this and be very good at it.

Happy to provide any other info needed.

Please advise on what I should do, thanks very much,

Steve


Pool is in ground, approx. 20,000 gallon
has a vinyl liner
3 inlet jets, one skimmer
Jaccuzi cartridge filter (I wash cartridge regularly)
Hayward CL200 feeder set all the way open to number 7 on dial, I maintain 2 to 3 tabs in it
Pump set to run about 6 hrs each day (I sometimes run it 24 hrs at a time)

Test results:

FC= 3.0
CC=3.0 (combined chlorine)
PH=7.4
Acid Demand= did 35 drops of solution 3 and still no change in color
TA= 7 drops of solution 3 then turned clear

[Watermom]

Hi, Steve.

What kind of chlorine (ingredients) did you use last year other than pucks? Do you have a CYA reading? That is going to be something we'll need to be able to give you very good advice. What all have you put in this year, meaning ingredients. Do you know what type of kit you have?

Re-post with the requested info and somebody here can try and help you get this figured out. Also, spend some time reading through a lot of the posts here on the forum and also on our sister website www.poolsolutions.com . Lots of good info for you to learn about taking care of your pool!

[PoolDoc]

Hi Steve;

Yesterday, I wrote so many versions of the outline I'm going to give you, they are all running together in my heap. (Yea, running together in my "heap". Uh, I meant "head") Hopefully, I can keep them straight.

#1 - if your pH is below 7.0, add borax a box per 10,000 gallons at a time SLOWLY in the skimmer with the pump running. Test before adding more. I'm guessing 1.5 boxes for you.
#2 - Turn your pump on and leave it own 24/7 till your pool is clean. Clean your filter as needed.
#3 - Do NOT worry about alkalinity now.
#4 - Get your CYA (stabilizer) tested and report those results. THIS IS NOT AN OPTIONAL STEP!
#5 - Get a cheap OTO / phenol red testkit (Walmart, etc.) and start using it.
#6 - Add 4 gallons of 6% household bleach this PM, within 2 hours of sunset. Test an hour after adding.
#7 - Test again in the AM -- no matter what the pool looks like, you are not 'cleaned up' till your pool holds chlorine overnight.
#8 - If you can afford it, purchase a K2006 or 2006C -- Amazon links below -- and start testing. Do NOT overtest CYA; there are only 3 - 4 CYA tests in a 2006
#9 - Physically remove all the algae & goop you can -- vacuuming, skimming, filtering. It's cheaper to take it out, than 'burn it out' with chlorine.

Report back, as you get these things done.

Ben

[Watermom]

rwhitsel,
Hi and welcome to the forum. It will be best if you start a new thread about your situation instead of tacking onto the middle of this one. We'll look for your new thread and will help you there!

Thanks.

[SteveInFLA]

Watermom and PoolDoc, thank you very much for your helpful replies, and I apologize for my delayed response. As for what else I used last year, I used the liquid chlorine from pinch-a-penny, I think it's 65% chlorine and their chlorine pucks with stabilizer and I think they are 90% chlorine. Also, I think I used s little bit of clarifier and an algaecide. The latter didn't really seem to do anything.

The test kit I've been using is the "basic 4" also from P-A-P. I have the strips but didn't trust them. No I don't have a way to test for CYA, in fact, I didn't even know about CYA unti reading here.

PoolDoc, I'll get the water tested for the CYA and post back as you said. Thanks for posting the steps, I will follow them. I do try to remove the algae from the surfaces, I had vacuumed it but now I took the wide pool brush and "swept" it off and get it into "solution" and let the filter take care of it then I wash and backwash the filter.

It will be a bit tough on us right now to purchase a K2006 or 2006C so maybe having it tested will get me by for a little while (???).

Thanks very much again, I really appreciate the help. Please post anything else that you think of that I can and/or should do, I'll report back as soon as I have some result on the CYA result.

Steve

[SteveInFLA]

Okay, I went to P-A-P and they tested for CYA and said it was "low around 20" and advised me to buy a 6lb. bag of Coastal stabilizer at $30. I did not buy it as I wanted to see what you experts thought first. I have vacuumed the pool and rinsed the filter cartridge several times. also added 10 Gallons of their chlorine. Maybe I'm wrong, but thier (P-A-P) chlorine seems to be much cheaper than buying bleach, or am I looking at it all wrong ?

Please let me know what you recommend re the stabilizer, etc.

Thanks very much,

Steve

[BigDave]

Does the P-A-P chlorine list it's concentration? Adjust for concentration and size (of bottle) and then compare price.
I would think it would be better to wait until you've cleared your algae to set up your CYA (stabilizer) as stabilizer inhibits chlorine's abillity to eradicate algae.
Turn off the chlorinator for now and battle the algae with Bleach / Liquid Chlorine whicever you can get cheapest (concentration * size) / price - they're both sodium hypochlorite solution.
When you can hold your Free Chlorine at shock level overnight (no feeder) + one more day at shock, then, if you have tabs left, you can use the tabs in your chlorinator until you get your CYA where you want it. Maybe someone here can tell you how many tabs you might need to raise your CYA level. Why buy CYA if you already have a bucket of tabs that contain CYA. Be cautious, too much CYA is a BAD thing (so is too little) and may give you an algae problem that is much harder to fight. Read the stickies on this forum to guide you regarding proper CYA level.

Good luck, Be well.

[Watermom]

i agree with what BigDave told you. Clear up the pool first, then use your trichlor until you get the CYA level to around 40-50. At that point, you'll want to just use bleach so your CYA level won't get too high. (For every 10ppm of chlorine that trichlor pucks add, they also add 6ppm of CYA.)

[madwil]

the pucks will also drive your pH down, so you may need to adjust it up over time- but clear the algae first!

[SteveInFLA]

All the green is completely gone now, yesterday the FC reading was over 3.0 (my test kit only goes to 3.0), I would guess it was around 3.5 or 4.0 as the color was darker than the 3.0. Today it reads maybe 3.2, the water is blue but cloudy, I assume that is dead algae causing the cloudy water (?)

I have been out of pucks for a few days which is why I added the liquid chlorine but I'll get more tomorrow. Thanks Watermom for the info re the amount of CYA in the pucks (and all your info). I'm running the pump 24/7 as advised.

BigDave, the P-A-P concentration is listed as 10.5% on the 2.5 gallon jugs. Thanks for the warning re too much CYA, I think I did read that too much keeps the chlorine from working, I'll continue reading, I'm very good at many things but chemistry has never been one of them, I'm trying to learn this though !

Is it recommended to use a floater for the pucks or continue using the CL200 feeder ?

Thanks for the help,

Steve

[madwil]

since you have the feeder, I'd keep using it as long as you plan to use the pucks; the floater would just waste your money, IMO...
good to hear the green is gone!

[CarlD]

madwil's right: If you have a feeder, you don't need the floaters. Personally, I don't have a feeder, nor intend to get one. When I want to use pucks, $10 floaters are good enough for me. Can't see spending a couple of hundred bucks on a feeder.

[SteveInFLA]

Okay thanks madwil and Carl, that makes sense, I had read about some owners really disliking their CL200's so that's why I asked. One other question about the feeder: The control goes from 0 (off) to 8 (full on), is there a suggested setting for my size pool or is it just something I need to experiment with ? And I'm guessing I need to try to maintain 2 to 3 tabs in it ?

[BigDave]

Don't know about 0 - 8 (you will have to experiment and adjust for bright/cloudy and swimmer load) but high enough to make sure that you have adequte Free Chlorine all the time. Adequate, of course, comes from Ben's Best Guess chart and will depend on your CYA level - rising while you're using dichlor and trichlor.

Remember to stop using the chlorinator when you get your CYA where you want it.

[SteveInFLA]

Remember to stop using the chlorinator when you get your CYA where you want it.

Thanks BigDave, but what about the chlorine, how is the chlorine level maintained if the feeder is turned off ?

Also, I checked the FC tonight and it has dropped to about 2, maybe 2.5, looks like a very faint sign of green trying to start back on the white steps, should I go ahead and add some tabs into the CL200 feeder now ?

[aylad]

A better idea might be to leave the chlorinator on but supplement every other day or so with bleach when you find that the chlorine is getting too low. That will extend the amount of summertime that you're able to use the chlorinator.

What BigDave meant was that when your CYA get to where you want it, turn the chlorinator off and switch to an unstabilized form of chlorine, like cal-hypo or bleach.

Janet

[BigDave]

Steve,
I think you mat not be finished with the algae battle.
If your CYA is still around 20 (may be higher if you've been using trichlor in the feeder), Ben's Best Guess chart puts your shock level at 12 ppm Free Chlorine(FC). I understand your FC test only goes to 3 ppm - you can use the "Shot Glass" dilution method to get a (slightly less accurate) measure of your FC. In a clean vessel, rinsed with distilled water, mix one part pool water and four parts distilled water and test this mix for FC them multiply your reading by 5 to get the FC in the pool.
What I would do if I had your pool:
1) I'd be really happy 'cause I don't have a pool right now.
2) Shut off the trichlor feeder until the algae is gone.
3) Measure CYA. Use Ben's Best Guess chart(http://poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html#a) to determine shock level.
4) Measure FC.
5) Add bleach (aka liquid chlorine and sodium hypochlorite solution) to bring the FC to shock level (or slightly above). Use pool calculator (http://www.poolcalculator.com/) to estimate dosage.
6) Brush the sides and bottom and vaccum / remove all the junk possible.
7) Repeat steps 4 - 6 as often as possible (at lease twice a day) until no more than 1 ppm FC is lost overnight (measured in the evening and in the early morning).
8) Clean the filter as necessary.
9) Keep the pool at shock level one more day.
10) IF the CYA is still low, turn on the trichlor feeder then shut it off when desired CYA level is reached.
11) Every day ( with feeder on or off ):
11.1) Measure FC add bleach as necessary to keep the FC between Min and Max on Ben's Best Guess chart for the CYA Level.
11.2) Measure pH and use Borax to raise and muriatic acid to lower.

[SteveInFLA]

Great information from all of you ! A question about the bleach, the only jugs of bleach we have at the house right now are HE and I see no info on the percentage of chlorine or anything on it. What type should I get and how does the 2-1/2 gallon jug from Pinch-A-Penny @ 10.5% @ about $4.50 compare to an equal amount of the bleach you guys use (chlorine wise) ?

Thanks,

Steve

[aylad]

I use the 182 oz jug from WalMart, it's 6% and I think sells for about $2.54.
What you're using may be just fine, but I would look for an 800 number on the label and call the company to see the percentage of sodium hypochlorite (chlorine). Sometimes they can be as low as 3%. The 10.5% stuff would be a great deal if it is still 10.5 %.....but it depends on how they store it and how often they rotate stock. Higher percentages of bleach tend to degrade faster than the lower concentrations. Somewhere around here, there's a post containing a method for actually testing your bleach for percentage, I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: This thread may help you out... http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/archive/index.php/t-7035.html


Janet

[BigDave]

I did a quick google search for HE and Bleach and didn't find anything that was bleach - mostly HE Laundry Detergent with Bleach Alternative. You probably don't want detergent in your pool. I made this mistake, I bought a big orange box that I thought was an economy size Arm and Hammer baking Soda. It turned out to be Arm and Hammer laundry detergent enhanced with baking soda. I put it in my pool, my pH and Alkalinity went up as I expected them to. It took me a very long time to figure out why my pool was so cloudy and smelled funny. I felt really dopey when I finally did.

[SteveInFLA]

I've seen those big Arm and Hammer boxes and I can easily see how that can happen. The HE bleach I was reffering to says "Great Value Rain scent bleach" and that's all, no info on the percentage of chlorine or anything else. I think it came from the grocery store my wife shops at (Publix). I'll check at Walmart and read their bleach. It seems to me that the local pool supply I've been dealing with cycles through their liquid chlorine supply pretty fast, they have it in what I would guess is about a 400 gallon poly tank outside and every time I go there, they are reffilling the containers and have customers lined up swapping their emptys.

I bought 15 gallons on this last Thursday and a new bucket of trichlor tabs. I dumped the 15 gallons in the skimmer Thursday evening and Friday morning the entire pool was sparkling, I checked FC Saturday morning and it was around 3.5 or maybe 4. I then put 3 tabs in the feeder Sat. evening and turned it on full. I just checked the FC again (Monday PM) and it's now about 1.0 and I'm seeing a very small amount of green trying to show only on the white steps in the diamond shaped recesses. So I'm not sure why that is already trying to come back, I'll check it again tomorrow and post the results. And I'll go get the CYA checked again.

Also on Saturday, I vacuumed a little bit that I had missed, no green just a little debri and then the water when from crystal clear to a little cloudy white and it still is. I've been running the pump nonstop and have cleaned the filter but it still very hard to see the bottom drain that's about 9 feet down.

Should I get some clarifier or what else is recommended ?

Thanks very much !

[BigDave]

YIKES!
Is this right?
According to the pool calculator 15 Gallons of 12.5% LC (is it 12.5% LC?) from the pool supply in your 24' round x 4' deep pool (13,500 gallons) woud give you 140 ppm of free chlorine - WAY WAY WAY too much!

Please Please Please
Get some reliable test numbers
You can't trust most tests with FC that high I have no idea if you cl test is even close.
Have you been using the dilution method?
I'll check the above calculation.

Are you sure 15 gallons? Even super cheapo economy bleach (as low as 3%) would have run your FC to 35 - completely unreadable on most tests especially if your test only goes to 3.

Turn off the feeder. Back away from the chemicals.

Don't go in the pool.

Would one of the forum experts please look at this - I'm concerned about this poster's pool.

(I wrote this before I saw how much LC you dumped in)
Also avoid the scented bleach - I made this mistake as well, lavender bleach, I ran out of bleach in the pool shed and robbed it from the laundry room - Doh! it takes a long time for the scent to go away it doesn't really smell much like lavender in pool but just kind of off.

[Watermom]

Big Dave ---- His volume is 20K. There was another poster who started up in the middle of this thread who had the 24ft AG pool.

Even still, Dave is right. You added WAY TOO MUCH chlorine! I hope you didn't totally bleach out your liner! With that kind of chlorine level, I can't imagine how you could have any specks of green left anywhere! What was the percent of the liquid chlorine you added 15 gallons of?

I also have a hard time believing that with chlorine taken that high, your cl level could have dropped so much so fast.

Get that CYA reading. Also, let a reputable pool store test your water and then post all the results here.

You need to get some reliable readings.

[BigDave]

I checked it. - I could be wrong but...
24' (pool Diameter in ft) / 2 = 12' (Pool Radius in ft)
PI * 12' (Pool Radius in ft) ^ 2 = 452.39 (Pool surfdace area in sq ft)
4' (Pool Depth in ft) * 452.39 (Pool surfdace area in sq ft) = 1809.5 (Pool Vulume in cu ft)
809.5 (Pool Vulume in cu ft) * 7.48 (Gallons in a cu ft) = 13,536 (Gallons in Pool)
15 (Gallons of LC) * 12.5% (Concentration of LC) = 1.875 (Gallons of pure LC)
1.875 (Gallons of pure LC) / 13,536 (Gallons in Pool) = 0.0001385 (fraction of LC in pool)
0.0001385 (fraction of LC in pool) * 1,000,000 = 138.5 (parts per million LC in pool)
I know it's supposed to be done by weight but ... DANG that's alot of bleach!

Please check it. Look around this forum for help on reading high cl levels.

If stuff in your pool really consumed that much chlorine and your level really is 1.0, you'll need to bring that up but you really need the advice of somebody here with real experience to help you figure out where you are.

You need to figure out where your FC and CC really are.

[BigDave]

Never mind.

But, really, at 20000 gallons (sorry watermom, my bad) that's still almost 100ppm cl.
Sorry for being alarmist.
I'll bet your pool was really clean.

[SteveInFLA]

Yes it was very clean and clear. The liquid chlorine I used was from Pinch-A-Penny in 2.5 gal. jugs @ 10.5% per jug and I used 6 jugs. Thankfully the liner looks like new. Thanks for the warnings, I thought I was doing good and shocking the water. I will take a sample and have them test it however, I thought I read on this forum that I should not trust most pool stores to test and that the same water taken at the same time from the same pool in different sample bottles were taken to different pool stores and had very different test results, so that's why I haven't done that (except for a CYA test last week).

So I'll post back with test results from the local P-A-P store.

Thanks again and please be patient with me at this point,

Steve

[aylad]

Shocking the water is a good thing to do, and is what needed to be done--you just have to have some control over it. You'd be doing yourself a favor to get a good test kit...barring that, if you can get the 6-way drop kit that they sell at WalMart for about $20, that would do the trick in the meantime and eliminate the need to depend on the pool store.

Janet

[PoolDoc]

Just curious . . . did anyone swim in it at those levels?

Did they notice anything, like getting 'chapped' down under? What about their swim suits?

(Mods, we're going to have to watch out for middle of the thread posters -- re-reading my original post, I think I was taking info from 2 posters and mingling, resulting in a mangled post. But, that was a long pool day (May 31))

[BigDave]

Well at 10% and 20,000 gallons that only brought you 75ppm cl.
Does your kit test for Total Chlorine or Combined Chlorine? That value might be helpful to know.
Your pool consumed alot of chlorine in a sort period of time.
If the bleach burned out all the remaining goo, and the resultant Combined Chlorine, and then was baked off by the sun, great! but, you won't know your done until you're sure your CC is less the 0.5 ppm and you don't lose more than 1 ppm FC overnight at shock level and maintain shock level for one more day.
It is important to get to FC to shock level and keep it there for a while.
You can't know your shock level without a CYA test.

Sounds like it's getting alot better - you'll get there.

[SteveInFLA]

Ben, no one went into the pool until Sunday which was about 3 days after I added the 15 gallons of CL, we didn't notice any problems with what you mention but we could definitely smell CL. Janet, I didn't know Walmart had a 6 test kit, I'll take a look, thanks.

BigDave, happy to see your permit was approved ! Yes, my 4 test kit does test for FC and CC, the color is almost exactly the same from FC to CC. Yeah, I think it's getting there, I have 3 tabs in the CL200 feeder and set it to 6 and there's really no new green but what was there a couple of days ago is mostly still there now.

I just got back from the P-A-P pool store and had my water tested, I'll post the results below. Please let me know what you all think and thanks.



Store Test Results:

Total CL: (no reading, they said it is "insignificant")
FC: 1.5
CC: (no reading, they said it is "insignificant")
pH:7.6
Acid Demand: No result
Total Alk: 55
Calcium Hardness: 200
Stabilizer: 100
TDS: No Result
Salt: No Result

The "analyst" that did the tests said I needed to add 1.8 gallons of LC and 18.9 lbs. of Total Alkalinity increaser and that was all (???)

[BigDave]

Steve,
Stop using the pucks, tabs, dichlor, trichlor, powder shock. Nothing but bleach / Liquid Chlorine. Your CYA (stabilizer) is too high.

[BigDave]

Your seeing green because you don't have enough chlorine for your CYA.

It doesn't make sense that the Total Chlorine should be less than the Free Chlorine - but we've already agreed that the PS testing is suspect.

If the pool smelled like the strong, acrid, icky, chlorine smell - that indicates Combined Chlorine.

What kind of CL test are you using? OTO? Yellow? DPD? Magenta?

Have you studied the dilution method? Used it? You should figure it out if you can't get the FAS-DPD test. You need to be able to track your chlorine levels at very high levels - both Free Chlorine and Combined Chlorine. You will need to be able to measure very high chlorine levels in this pool for as long as your CYA is so high.

I suspect that after running your pool up to 75 ppm less than a week ago, you probably still have alot of something in there - maybe lots of CC that's not being read.


You need to kill the algae.

Only use bleach / Liquid Chlorine to chlorinate your pool.

If your CYA is 100 Ben's Best Guess Chart puts your shock value at 25.
That's 5 gallons of the 10% LC.
Test and adjust the Free Chlorine back to 25 ( a little overshoot is OK, don't go to 75 ;) ) at least twice a day.
More often if you can.
Also test pH each time - high cl will skew the pH test but with alk at 55 you don't want the pH to get away from you.
This requires the ability to test cl levels of 25 or more - see above.
Keep the pool at 25 until you have less than 0.5 CC and lose no more than 1 ppm FC overnight (evening test to early morning test) and then one day more at 25.


After you've cleared the algae and Combined Chlorine

You'll use Baking Soda or Washing Soda to raise your alk ( a little at a time ) and then dial in your pH.

For maintenance:
Only use bleach / Liquid Chlorine to chlorinate your pool.
Ben's Best Guess Chart puts your normal FC between 8 and 15. If it goes below 8 the algae may come back. 8 - 15 FC for as long as your CYA is 100.

Please spend some time to figure out how to test high chlorine levels.
Test often.
Report your results.
Look at the best guess chart - you may not want to swim at 25ppm FC or you may want to wear an old suit.

Be well.

[PoolDoc]

Take a look at the "Best Guess" page, linked in my signature. You need higher chlorine than what they said. I wouldn't worry about the baking soda, unless your pH is unstable.

Given your recent algae, I'd think more in terms of 6 gallons of plain 6% household bleach (or 3 gallons of FRESH pool chlorine).

You need to test your stabilizer. I'm assuming your dealer is using strips, which aren't very accurate. But if you really have 100 ppm, you are going to either have to drain or run high levels that require a FAS-DPD kit to measure.

[Watermom]

A pool store that tells you that total chlorine and combined chlorine are insignificant? Uhh, that's a bit concerning.