Algae loves my pool

[mrsbusymomee]

Opened my pool about a month ago. Shocked it once a week and have been vacuuming. Noticed debris on the bottom a few days later after vacuuming where it didn't even look like I vacuumed. We have had no rain since January, and thought it may just be really dusty and that is what was settling to the bottom. Water has always been clear. Then started to notice algae growth.
I have an AG 24' 13K gallons. Sand filter. Sand brand new last year.
I pumped to waste because the algae would come right up with no scrubbing. I shocked with 4lbs of chlor brite from Leslies only to have the algae back on the bottom by the next night. My water levels have all been within range. No phospates, pH 7.4 is fine, hardness fine, CYA is now at 80. Sorry I have no other numbers. Have had my water tested several times and all have been ok. This last time I pumped to waste again, put an algaecide in it, and shocked with another 5lbs of shock only to have the pool green on the bottom again. Leslies pool supply doesn't know what to do at this point and I am sick of spending all this money!! I don't want to ruin the liner with all that shock either. The chlorine is way above normal, and the test kit I have only goes to 5ppm.
What can I do at this point? What kit can I go buy to give ya'll proper readings? The water is clear, not cloudy. The algae keeps coming back really fast. Never had this problem before.
Thanks and glad I found this site!

[PoolDoc]

Hi Mrs;

If you'll look at the Best Guess chart (link below -- but it's no longer a guess) you'll see that with a CYA of 80 you need normal chlorine levels of 5 - 10 ppm, and that the low end of "shock" levels is 20 ppm. It's not uncommon to encounter algae that is not killed till chlorine levels are 2x the shock level.

The test kit you need is the K2006, available via Amazon (link below) for around $60 delivered.

You have three options:

You can run higher chlorine levels to adjust for your high CYA, or
You can add sodium bromide via a product like "No-Mor Problems", or
You can drain 2/3 of your water and refill, lowering your CYA to ~30 ppm.


High chlorine with high CYA is no more likely to bleach your liner than regular shock levels of chlorine with low CYA . . . but there's no way to tell in advance whether your liner's colors are chlorine stable. We've found, in conversations we've had with vinyl sheeting engineers, that liners that look identical have very difference color fastness, and that once the sheeting leaves the manufacturer, there's no way to tell which sort you have.

Sodium bromide works by making your pool a "bromine" pool, at least for awhile. Bromine is not affected by CYA -- which means lower levels can kill algae, but it also means your chlorine consumption will go up.

Draining is straight forward -- unless you have a sunken pool. Most above ground pools can be drained 2/3 with no problem. Most inground LINER pools cannot.

Good luck!

Ben

[mrsbusymomee]

Thanks Ben,

After reading numerous threads on your forum I was coming to that conclusion. I've had a high CYA in the past and had to drain most of my pool. Should I try to get rid of the algae first? Or go ahead and drain? And...how can I avoid a high CYA in the future? Is liquid chlorine better to use? Been reading lots. Sry for all the ?'s.
I am having a girls weekend (hell yea!!) in a couple of weeks and want my pool ready.

Thanks again!!

[mrsbusymomee]

Ok last question...Does liquid chlorine or bleach have stabilizer in it? Also, when I get my pool back to normal levels, what do you recommend as an inexpensive weekly maintenance? Just the chlorine or bleach? It gets super hot and humid here and the water temp gets in the high 80's at times. I'm also ordering that kit today!!
Thanks a bunch!!

[aylad]

If you plan to drain and refill some water, go ahead and do that firt. Then test for CYA again and shock based on the chart and new level. The key to killing it all, though, is to sustain that shock level until the pool is blue and clear-- and until you dont lose anh chlorine from sundown to sunup. To keep your CYA down, use bleach or cal hypo for chlorination--no trichlor or dichlor.

Janet

[CarlD]

To answer your question, No. Bleach and Liquid Chlorine (which is the same thing, only more concentrated) do NOT have stabilizer. They don't affect pH, add stabilizer, or add calcium. That's why Bleach/LC is the perfect chlorination tool.

Carl

[mrsbusymomee]

So I am done draining my pool and am now filling it back up. I went ahead and pumped to waste to clean out what I could. Pool looks pretty good.
Anyway, I found 2 gallons of LC named SHOCK that I bought last year. It contains 10% chlorine and doesn't list what the other 90% is. Is that ok?
Also after I get my pool back to normal, should I still use the tablets I have that are trichlor or use something else? If I use bleach all the time, how do you maintain the chlorine that way and how often do you put it in?

Thanks for all your advice!

[Watermom]

How much did you drain? Does the shock that you have list sodium hypochlorite as the ingredient? If so, you can go ahead and use it in the pool, but I doubt very seriously that it is still 10% after that much time. Unless you did a total drain and refill (and I hope you didn't!!!), you do NOT want to use the trichlor tabs. Just use bleach. If you use bleach, you just have to test it every evening or at least every other evening and add a little bleach. How much to add depends on what your cya level is. I usually check it every evening and add a little bleach. It takes me no more than 5 minutes at most.

[aylad]

Use the "Best guess chlorine chart" in Watermom's and my sig to determine where your chlorine needs to be, based on your CYA level, and add your bleach accordingly.

Janet

[CarlD]

10% liquid Chorine "Shock" is really just 10% bleach (it usually is actually a little higher). Regular bleach is 5.25%, "Ultra" (now the standard) is 6%.

What's the other 90%? Salt water! Yup! Bleach is made from brine (saltwater) as the formula for salt is NaCl...Sodium Chloride. So don't worry about it. If you use nothing but bleach/Liquid Chlorine for 10 years you still wont approach the salt water levels necessary for a pool that uses Salt Water Chlorine Generation (SWG,or SWCG).

[chem geek]

I wrote this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/blind-faith-and-this-forum-t23196-20.html#p190888) about what is in various products since this question of whether grocery/hardware store equivalents are really the same as pool store products comes up frequently from users new to these forums. Regular Clorox (Ultra in Canada) and off-brand Ultra bleaches are pretty much all 6% sodium hypochlorite, 4.7% sodium chloride salt and 88.7% water. Clorox has a very small amount of sodium polyacrylate in it as well (it is a mild metal sequestrant but as diluted in pools the amount is negligible).

[mrsbusymomee]

Well when it rains it pours. I drained about 2/3 of my pool and is now filled back up and it rained a lot last night. Went to go turn the pump on and now that doesn't work. (My husband is real handy and he said it froze need a new one.) So I am headed to the pool store to go buy another one. OMG I hope nothing else goes wrong as they say things happen in threes. UGH!
I'll have my water tested and I'll stop at walmart and buy a bunch of bleach and whatever else (borax or baking soda) provided what the pH is. I'll report the numbers when I get back.
Thanks guys!

[Watermom]

I would suggest getting an inground pump because they are usually easier to open. I have a pool the same size as yours and when I replaced mine, I bought a full-rated 1/2 hp inground pump for my AG pool and it has been fine. (Chose that one based on the recommendation of my fellow mod Poconos who is our resident pump expert.) Be cautioned --- the pool store will try and sell you a bigger pump than you need! They will probably also try and tell you that you can't use an inground pump on an AG pool and that it is NOT true. That's what I am doing!

[mrsbusymomee]

I'm getting the same one I have which is the Hayward 1.5 hp. The store is matching amazons price. This pump has lasted me 8-10yrs. Can't really go wrong with a hayward. It is relatively easy to open to clean out the inner basket, if that is what you meant about opening easily. 1/2 hp isn't enough, I need 1 1/2hp for my AG and filter size. It seems to get the job done quickly and efficiently. Nothing like a good filtration system. I'll need it after what my water looks like now with all this rain, Light green, cloudy Dangnamit!!

[PoolDoc]

Mix your bleach -- 1 gallon to a couple of gallons of water -- and add it NOW! Do NOT wait for the pump to be installed. You can pour bleach into the pool, walking it around the edges, and get pretty fair distribution. But do not let it turn into a slime pit while you're working on the pump. It's much, much easier to maintain it, now, than it will be to clean it up once it becomes a swamp.

Ben

[Watermom]

It is your pool and certainly your decision but 1-1/2 hp is too big for this small of a pool. It isn't energy efficient and just overkill. I think you would find here on our forum that most of our pump experts would agree that you don't need that big of a pump. On pool pumps, it is definitely not a case of bigger is better. Like I mentioned, my pool is the same size as yours and 1/2 hp has been just fine. At any rate, it is your decision. Just offering an opinion for you.

[mrsbusymomee]

How much did u pay for it? On my way to pool place now. What kind/brand is yours? What type filter do you have? Mine is a sand filter and takes 150lbs of sand. Hate to change when it has worked so well.

[mrsbusymomee]

Here are my results.
FC 7
TC 7
pH 7.6
Hard 200
Alkalinity 200
CYA is still 80!!
I'm going to buy cal hypo to eliminate prob a little quicker then use bleach. What should I do about CYA still high?
I'm at store now.
Thanks.

[Watermom]

It has been several years since I bought it and I can't remember how much I paid for it but it is a Hayward Super Pump 1/2 hp full-rated inground pump, single speed.. Probably paid around $200 or so I think but not sure. I have a 200 lb. sand filter. The problem with oversized pumps is they are so powerful that they force stuff right through the filter and don't do as well as they should at filtering the water. This is especially true if your filter isn't that big. Do what you feel comfortable with but you really can get by with a smaller pump. It will most likely help your filter to work better (and yours isn't that big) and it will save you on your electric bill. We often have people on here with algae problems who finally get the algae cleared up but can't get it to filter out and typically we find that they have pumps that are way too big and thus it is just forcing stuff through the filter back into the pool without filtering it.

[Watermom]

The only thing to do to lower cya is to do a partial drain and refill. Or you can just run higher than normal chlorine levels. See the best guess chart (which is actually factual and not a guess) in my signature line below. Also, cal-hypo isn't going to clear the pool any faster than bleach will. But, it will raise your calcium hardness reading. You are still ok at 200 but calcium is not needed in a vinyl pool --- no matter what the pool store tells you.

[mrsbusymomee]

I should of said cal hype u don't need quite as much as bleach. I'm still going to buy bleach as well. I've already drained my pool 2/3 and refilled. My water bill is going to b outrageous already. I'm so frustrated. So drain again? Or just deal with higher chlorine for now?

Thanks.

[aylad]

You can easily just maintain higher chlorine levels...in fact, given your geographical location, that might be the smarter choice. I'm near Shreveport, LA, and I intentionally keep my CYA levels at 80-90 because I actually use less chlorine in the long run, and don't have to add it daily.

Be careful with the cal-hypo, though--like Watermom said, your hardness is already at 200, and when it gets too high (somewhere in the 300-400 range), you're going to start having problems with milky water that won't clear due to the high calcium, and the answer to that issue is more drain/refill. So I encourage you to switch to bleach (or liquid chlorine if you can get it) as soon as you can to avoid having to dump more water.

Janet

[chem geek]

You can live with 80 ppm, but need to keep the Free Chlorine (FC) level at 6 ppm or higher for a manually dosed pool. Some people in hot sunny climates keep their CYA levels this high and many saltwater chlorine generator pools do this as well so its certainly manageable. The main downside is that IF you end up getting algae or unusually high chlorine demand (i.e. nascent algae bloom), then the shock level is very high so would take a lot of chlorine. So long as you manage your pool properly, you should be OK. Your chlorine loss rate will be lower at this high CYA level -- probably around 1.2-1.5 ppm FC so you could start at 8 ppm and end up above 6 ppm each day, for example (assuming you are adding chlorine every day). I'm assuming your pool is open to sunlight -- if you have a pool cover, the chlorine loss would be lower.

[CarlD]

If you pour in 3 gallons of 6% bleach when your FC is 7, your FC should go to 20ppm, which is the recommended shock level for CYA=80. Cal-Hypo won't get into your water nearly as fast.

If your pump MOTOR is seized up, you can replace the motor. If the pump is seized up, it may be repairable.

But your pump's capacity MUST always be lower than your filter's capacity or you will ruin your filter.

My Dad ran a 13,000 gal AG with a 3/4hp uprated pump and DE filter combo for something like 15 years. A bigger pump uses more electricity, too.

Carl

[mrsbusymomee]

Well I bought 10 96oz bottles of bleach so I'll start with that then. Thanks for all the advice and I'll keep my chlorine higher. Do I need to do anything about the alkalinity after my pool is clear?

[Watermom]

Yes, but one thing at a time. So that you can start reading about the process for lowering it though, here is the link.

http://poolsolutions.com/gd/lowering-swimming-pool-alkalinity-step-by-step.html

So, did you get a pump?

[mrsbusymomee]

I did get my pump. I got the same one. Cost right at 200. Soon as I make it home we will get it going and I'll add the bleach. My test kit won't b in until next week and the one I have only goes to 5ppm. But I read about diluting so I'll just do that.
Thanks for all the advice. I'll keep y'all posted on how it looks in a couple of days.

[mrsbusymomee]

Ok, actually we had an extra pump that we forgot about (our neighbor gave us) and I believe that is only 1hp. We're hanging on to the new one for a backup. We've had 1.5hp for 15 years with the same filter.
Never had any algae problems until now. But this completely makes sense about CYA and chlorine levels and why my algae keeps coming back just as fast. No wonder the stores don't know what to do. I tried to tell them I need to get my chlorine levels up and they all looked at me like I was insane. LOL They also tried to sell me a crap load of chemicals. I said no thanks I'm just going to go buy bleach. Lady in there said that won't work. Can't wait to disappoint her!!
How often and when should I test the water again using my 5ppm dilution method so that I maintain at least 20ppm? Every morning?
Once the algae is gone and I'm maintaining 5-10, how often do you shock. The normal once a week?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is a new procedure for me.
Thanks again and hopefully the water will be clearer in the morning.

[Watermom]

While you have algae, you should try and test a minimum of twice per day (morning and evening) and more often than that is even better and will clear the pool faster. There is no such thing as testing and adding bleach too often when you have a green pool. When you test, add enough bleach to take it back up to shock level. After you get to the point where the pool is clear, you have no more than 0.5ppm of CC and you can go from sundown one day to sunup the next day without losing more than 1ppm of chlorine, then you can let the cl drift back down and go to testing and adding bleach in the evenings only.

As far as how often to shock routinely when there is no algae, the answer is that you actually don't have to shock on a regular basis. As long as you maintain the needed chlorine levels based on your cya level and you are diligent about doing so, it isn't really necessary to shock. I rarely shock my pool because I am diligent about testing and maintaining adequate chlorine levels. If I detect a CC reading above 0.5ppm, or if we have a heavy bather load or lots of rain that drops a lot of organic matter in the pool, I will shock but otherwise, I don't. I probably don't shock more than 4 or 5 times during the whole swim season.

You should also be running the pump 24/7 while you are working to clear the pool.

Don't worry about all the questions. That is how you learn and that is why we are here --- to help!

[mrsbusymomee]

How do you test for FC TC and CC? I know FC-TC=CC. FC is basically testing your pool for free chlorine level, but TC (total chlorine?) how do you test for that? My kit won't be here until later next week so I'm using the "shot glass" method. This method only shows the FC, correct?
My pool water isn't that bad. I can see all the way to the bottom and there's a thin film of algae on the bottom that is easily stirred with the brush so it shouldn't be long before my pool is back to normal. That's good to know that I won't have to "shock" my pool. What about when it rains a lot? Will I have to shock then? Guess I'll get used to this when I start testing more often and becoming familiar with it all.
Thanks!

[Watermom]

TC-FC=CC Don't worry about all that until your kit comes. Hopefully you'll get it in few days and you'll be better able to manage your pool.

[mrsbusymomee]

I know I said I would post in a couple of days, but I'm sooooo excited!!! The pool water is almost crystal clear and the algae is going away. The bottom is not that thin film of green anymore. Now it has accumulated in the divets of the bottom. There's just a little bit of algae left. Stairs are all white too! I tested the water this morning and the cl was 17, so I added, according to the pool calculator, another 81oz of bleach. Once the algae is completely gone, I'm assuming I just let the chlorine drop on its own to 5-10ppm?
Y'all just rock and I will be subscribing to this website.
Thank you all!!!

[Watermom]

Great news!! It's amazing what a little (or maybe a lot!!) of bleach can do, isn't it? We would be delighted to have you subscribe to the forum. Those subscriptions help us keep Pool Forum (and Pool Solutions, our sister site) alive and able to help people. We would be very appreciative to have the financial support. Keep us posted how things are going with your pool. Looks like you'll be swimming soon!

[mrsbusymomee]

I went ahead and brushed up the bottom and sides, so the water is a little cloudy again, but not nearly as green. Should I test the water this afternoon to keep that 20ppm? Also my husband had a question, he wants to know how long do I need to keep the pump running each day when the pool is back to normal and when to run it? During the day or evening? Mind you I'm near Houston where we have long HOT summers.
Thanks again for y'alls help!! Can I get a HEE HAW? LOL

[Watermom]

Go ahead and keep the cl high while it is cloudy and keep the pump running. Once it is totally clear with little chlorine loss overnight, you'll be good to go. I typically run my pump about 8 hours per day. Some people break it up into a couple of sessions a few hours long, but I typically turn my pump on around noon when the sun gets strong and off around 8 or so in the evening. However that is not a set in stone rule. Sometimes I turn it on earlier especially if I want to vacuum in the morning or something. But on a typical day, about 8 hours for my pool.

EDIT to add --- when you are no longer fighting algae, the best time to test and add bleach is in the evenings. So, you want to leave your pump running for at least an hour or so after adding bleach to give it a chance to mix well.

[mrsbusymomee]

Just tested the water again and the cl was about 17 so I added another 80oz to the pool and stirred the bottom up again. Slowly but surely it is looking better and better. I'll test again tonight before I go to bed.
Thanks for the advice.

[Watermom]

You are very welcome.

[mrsbusymomee]

The cl level has stayed the same since I added that last 80oz yesterday. The pool is crystal clear and there's what appears to be just debris or maybe dead algae in the crevices of the liner on the bottom. When I brush it up, it is not green, just dirty, dusty looking. Should I keep the cl level up for one more day to be on the safe side? There is no more algae that I can tell. The pool looks great.
Thanks again guys for all your help!!

[PoolDoc]

Dead algae usually looks like grayish brown dust -- sounds like that's what you've got.

And, it's a VERY good idea to keep the chlorine up for several days AFTER it looks like it's all dead.

Ben

[mrsbusymomee]

I had to bring some chemicals back yesterday to get a refund and also brought them a sample. After I drained my pool they said the CYA was still 80. Well when they tested it yesterday, the CYA is now 40. Guess since my pump wasn't working and circulating the water, it gave a wrong reading. So I guess I've been overshocking my pool. No wonder it cleared up fast. LOL Anyway, the water is crystal clear and the bottom just has that sediment, dead algae, on the bottom. I've been shocking since Saturday, should I keep it up or bring the chlorine level down now? I just added some more bleach this morning.
Thanks again for all your advice. Now I am waiting on my kit to get here. Also here are my other readings he tested. Should I start working on getting the alkalinity down?
pH 7.6
Alka 200

[Watermom]

Yes. If you look in my signature line, you'll see a link for the Pool Solutions pages. Do a search for lowering alk. There is a pool guide detailing how to do that.

[mrsbusymomee]

OK, I still have to wait until my kit comes in the mail. Hopefully by Thursday. Also, I have an AG pool, so how do you aerate it like the directions describe to raise the pH back up? Just curious if you have done this? Also, I'm using that pool calculator by In the Swim to determine how much acid. Is that a reliable calculator?
Thanks a bunch!

[madwil]

aeration will work the same in AG pools; you can simply direct your returns up some, to churn the water on the surface, or maybe even a small fountain effect
I haven't used that calculator specifically, but most of them give you similar doses- the key behind Acid is to adjust in steps IMO, don't dump all at once but use 1/2 - 2/3 of the dose, retest in an hour (with the pump running) and adjust more if needed; depending on pool size and TA, you may need more acid than called, but its easier to add more than to take it away; if you overdo acid, you have to add something else to compensate, then you end up on a seesaw!

[mrsbusymomee]

I got my test kit in today. The pool looks fan-swimmin-tastic!!
CYA 30
FC 4.4
CC 0
TA 250
pH 7.6
I am using the pool calculator to lower my pH to 7.0 in order to get my alkalinity down. It says for a 13k pool to add 46oz of muratic acid. Should I add that much or do only like 30 for now. My husband is working on the aerator part. LOL
Also, how soon after I add that acid can I let the kiddos swim? 2 hours?
And...since my CYA has lowered quite a bit, I'm going to use the rest of my trichlor tabs in a floater to maintain cl levels for now. Once I run out, then I'll use my bleach. What do you think?
Hope ya'll have a great Memorial Weekend!! Be safe and thanks again for the advice.

[mrsbusymomee]

Been putting in muriatic acid a little at a time. This morning here are the readings.

pH 7.3
TA 210

Guess this is going to take a while. Also went ahead and put in those tabs to maintain the chlorine which is right at 5.2. Guess everything is going ok. Didn't feel the need to test CYA again. I will when I use up all the tabs.
I went ahead and subscribed for a year. Ya'll have been super! Thanks again.

[PoolDoc]

You don't have to be quite that cautious -- add enough acid to get down to 7.0 . . . and then add a little more. As the alkalinity 'bleeds off' (as carbon dioxide) the pH will go back up.

Thanks for the subscription!

Ben

[mrsbusymomee]

The pH is at 7.0 and the TA is now 200. How long does it take for the pH to get back up to at least 7.4? I have a strong spa jet like current bubbling in the middle of the pool aerating.
13k AG.

[chem geek]

Knowing how long isn't definitive. The more aeration, the better. In my own pool when I just turn up the returns and put the pump on high, it takes about half a day to go from 7.0 to 7.2 or so at a lower TA of around 120 ppm, but every pool is different. Since your TA is higher, I'd figure it'll take a few hours to get to 7.2 and another half a day to get to 7.4 -- just try it out for a day to see. The process will go faster if you add acid when you see the pH get to 7.2. Basically, the carbon dioxide outgassing is faster at lower pH and slows down as the pH rises.

[mrsbusymomee]

Well I put some more acid this morning at 7:30 to bring the pH down to 7.0 and the pH at that time was 7.3. Then I checked again at around 12:30 and the pH had risen to 7.2 and I went ahead and put more acid in. Not only do I have my "rigged" jet going, I also turned the return jet up to make more bubbles. Hopefully that will work a little faster. I'll check again tonight. Didn't check the alkalinity again. It is going to just take some time, so I'll check it in a couple of days.
Thanks for your input!

[mrsbusymomee]

Well I have been really good about checking the water, etc. Now today I had a ton of algae again. I thought I killed it all when I originally started this thread. I thought on the bottom was just dirt from the kids swimming.
The chlorine has not dropped below 4ppm and my CYA is 35-40. Guess I did not have it all killed like I thought I did? My water is crystal clear too. So now I shocked up to 17ppm and I'll keep it there for a few days? I don't understand why I'm getting algae when I thought I had killed it the first time. My pump has been running 24/7 as well because I've been trying to lower the alkalinity which is now at 150. pH is 7.5 today. I don't get it.