Help! I'm ready to pull my hair out!

[mortimay]

This is only the third year I've had a pool (it's a rental house) and the first that I'm opening it myself. I've been working on my pool for two weeks. It is an above ground 27' x 4' round pool. I have a Hayward sand filter.

I started out with a dark green pool. It is now light green and cloudy. I was working with a pool company but they can't seem to give me advice to get my pool up and running. I used yellow-out, granular 56 and flox per their instruction. While it got me to the light green stage I've been battling the PH and Alkalinity trying to get them balanced. The pool company told me to get them in balance before adding chlorine. I'm lost.

I have company coming in two weeks and was hoping to have my pool ready by then. Please, please help.

[Watermom]

Pool stores at good at having you add a bunch of stuff you don't need and that often compound the problem! If you can supply some current water testing results taken with a drops-based kit, somebody here can try and help you. If you don't have a good kit of your own, you should get one. We suggest the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C. Ordering information can be found in my signature line below. Repost with some numbers and we'll get you started clearing this pool!

[mortimay]

Here are my test results from this morning. I'm using an HTH 6 way test kit.

PH 7.8
Cl .5
Br 1
Alk 120
Hard 360
CYA The black dot never disappeared but did become slightly cloudy

I live in Indiana and it's been cold and rainy the last 3 days.

[mortimay]

I added 5 1/2 gal of bleach after posting this morning. I just checked my clorine level. It's at 1 now. I didn't check anything else. Where do I go from here?

[Watermom]

Since it sounds like you have very little CYA, shocking to about 12 would be the target I would suggest. In this size pool, each quart of 6% bleach should add slightly less than 1ppm of chlorine. Adding 5 1/2 gallons should have taken your cl level up to about 19ppm which is plenty high! You actually don't want to go quite that high to avoid damaging your liner. As many times per day as you can, test and add enough bleach to get the cl back up to 12. A minimum of twice per day and more often is even better and will clear it faster. Run your pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear the pool. Watch your filter pressure and backwash when the pressure rises 8-10 psi over clean filter pressure.

For your calcium hardness reading to be so high, you must have used cal-hypo in the past. No more of that. Your reading is pretty high and may be contribute to cloudy water problems. Stick with bleach. (Also, you do not have a bromine reading.) I would suggest getting a good test kit. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C.

Keep us posted how things are going.

[mortimay]

I checked my numbers this morning:

Alk 120
hard 350
PH 7.5
Cl 1
Br 2

I added 4 gal of pool shock this morning. I don't know how much it matters but I did fill the pool when I started all this with well water. We have all kinds of metals, etc in the well water. That was two weeks ago. I don't know if that has anything to do with the hardness, etc.

I am new to all this. Right now I'm just adding the bleach. What else should I be doing? Do I adjust for PH and alkalinity while adding the bleach or wait until the pool clears? How often do I need to test for CYA? The test kit I have only had two tests for that. I plan to get the Taylor test when I can, but in the meantime, what should I be doing?

[mortimay]

I just checked my numbers (11:00am) after adding the 4 gal of pool shock this morning (9:15am)

Alk 120
Hard the sample turned a dull yellowy color instead of blue
PH 7.8
Cl turned orange
Br turned orange

How often should I be testing and how long after adding chemicals do I test? At what point do I react to the test results?

Thank you for all your help!

[aylad]

I would say for right now, don't worry about all the other numbers, let's just concentrate on getting the pool cleared up. First off, when you say you added "pool shock" this morning, what were the ingredients? Second, here's a link to the method for estimating your chlorine levels with the OTO kit. http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?10073-Testing-high-chlorine-levels-(without-a-good-testkit)
I wouldn't worry for now about any of the other tests except for chlorine (you don't have bromine in your pool, so ignore that reading altogether). Wait an hour or so after you add chlorine to retest, and make sure you're taking your water sample from under water--take your collection container, turn it upside-down, then push it as far underwater as you can before turning it upright, so you're not getting your sample from the surface. Keep your chlorine as consistently as you can at 12-15 ppm, with the filter running.

I also would recommend that you take a sample of your pool water into the pool store to have it checked for metals--but don't buy any of the stuff that they'll want to sell you, except maybe some metal sequestrant, and only IF the water tests positive for iron/copper.

Janet

[mortimay]

The ingredients listed on the pool shock were 12.5% Sodium Hypochlorite and the rest was just listed as inert ingredients.

[Watermom]

So, the shock is just liquid chlorine. Usually shocks are powder. Regular bleach is just 6% sodium hypochlorite, so your shock is basically strong bleach which will be good to use.

[mortimay]

I just checked my chlorine using the shot glass method. The best I can tell I think the chlorine is at around 12. Should I continue to add bleach even if I show the chlorine at 12 or wait until it drops? It is no longer showing orange in my tests, but a dark yellow.

[mortimay]

I'm still fighting the green. My numbers are PH 8.2 the chlorine turned orange using the shot glass method and diluting it with 3 shots of distilled water. The alkalinity test turned a light blue and then yellow when adding the titrant. I added 6 gallons of 10% sodium hypochlorite about an hour ago. I have no clue what to do. My pool is getting just a bit clearer but I have been battling this for almost 3 weeks. I've seen pools turn around in a matter of days so I'm obviously not doing something right. I guess I need more detailed instructions on chemicals, time-frames, etc.

[Watermom]

How often are you adding chlorine? Don't worry about any other numbers right now except chlorine and pH. Do yourself a favor and order a better test kit -- Taylor K-2006. You can click on the Amazon link in my signature to order it. It will make it SO much easier on you. I just checked and they have 16 in stock from Amato Industries which is the place we recommend. You'll be glad you bought it.

The key to killing algae is to sustain the high cl reading. If you let it yo-yo up and down, it will take forever to clear. Run the pump 24/7 and backwash when the pressure rises 8-10psi over clean filter pressure. Did you take a sample to the pool store and ask them to test for metals? Please do so and while you are there, go ahead and let them run a full set of numbers but don't buy a bunch of stuff that they will try and tell you that you need.

Don't test your pH when you have just added chlorine. It will give you a false reading. Hang in there. We'll stick by and continue to help and encourage you! It'll clear if you are consistent with the chlorine levels.

And again, get a good kit. This wouldn't be so hard if you had one.

[mortimay]

I had my water tested at a local pool store:

FC 4.5
TC 5.2
pH 7.6
Alk 155
Stab 21

I forgot to have them run the metals test. I'll have to go back later today. I've been adding chlorine once a day. Last time I added was last night.

[Watermom]

It would be better to add chlorine more often while you are attempting to clear it up. At least morning and night and more often if you can.

[CarlD]

Watermom has been giving you absolutely the advice you need. But if you don't test and adjust the FC 3 times a day (or, minimum 2x a day), you'll never get it sorted out. Keep doing what Lisa's telling you.

Meantime, let's look at your pump and filter.
1) You need to be running it 24/7 until it's clear.
2) You need to vacuum the pool to waste every single day. Get the junk out!
3) You need to brush the walls and bottom every single day. This knocks the algae loose so the chlorine can kill it.
4) You need to backwash your filter whenever the pressure rises. So...backwash, and note the pressure. When it goes up 5 psi, backwash again.
5) Get a small box of DE powder, 10 pounds or less. After backwashing, add about 1/3 cup to your skimmer and wait about 20-30 minutes. The object is for the pump pressure to increase a little, about 1 psi, no more than 2. At this point, the DE will improve the filtering for the sand. 10 pounds of DE should be less than $10. And it should last you all summer, if not 2 summers.
6) Get skimmer filters. These are generically called "Skimmer Socks" but can be called "Filter savers". It's an elastic filter that goes in the skimmer, about 4 or 5 for $10. I find one lasts a month. Rinse it out every single day or when it gets clogged. It will catch all kinds of stuff for you.
7) You must have P.O.P.P. Pool Owner Patience and Persistence!

Carl

[mortimay]

Thank you for the help. How much chlorine should I be adding each time? I still only have the cheapie test kit. I'm working on getting the better one. If I vacuum to waste every day do I go ahead and fill the pool daily also? I won't be able to get my water tested for metals (I have well water) until Monday morning. What is DE powder and what does it do? The pool is getting clearer. I can see my skimmer net on the bottom of the pool now and it looks like the water is bluer - I hope that's not just wishful thinking! :)

[madwil]

the shotglass method will work for now to test FC, keep the FC at shock levels as consistently as you can and keep filter on 24/7...
Yes, keep your water level filled when you vacuum- if it is starting to clear, you can possibly even vacuum through filter instead of to waste to conserve water/chemicals...
DE is Diamataceous Earth (spelling?), you can add a cup at a time to your skimmer, wait 15-20 minutes and check pressure on your filter- when your pressure raises 1 psi, you've added enough- it fills in gaps in your sand, creating a finer filter media to filter out more suspended crud from your water; then it will be removed along with the crud when you backwash, so you add it again, the same amount as you determined the first time by the cup method!

[mortimay]

Back to square one. I busted my strainer lid last night and had to shut the pump off. Still haven't gotten it up and running, having issues with leaks. Not been a good day. Anyway, I took a sample to the pool place and here's where my numbers are now (or at least this morning before the sun hit it):

FC 6.9
TC 7.6
pH 5.0
Alk 135
Stab 18
TDS 1400
Iron .12
Copper .74

She told me to add 3 lbs pH increaser and 2 lbs Stabilizer and I did buy the Metal free and she told me to add half of the 33.9oz bottle.

I havent' done anything yet except work on getting my pump running again. Figured I'd ask what you all thought I should do before doing anything.

Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

FC 6.9
TC 7.6
pH 5.0 <==
Alk 135
Stab 18
TDS 1400
Iron .12
Copper .74


Something is seriously wrong here -- I actually looked in your registration to see if you'd included a phone number -- but there are three possibilities:

Your previous test results were all wrong, or
You added a BUNCH of acid, but didn't mention doing so, or
This most recent test is bogus and should NOT be trusted!


Pools don't mysteriously go from pH 7.6 (next to last test) to 5.0 (last test) for no reason. A pH of 5.0 *can* damage your liner. But if you didn't add acid, it's almost a certainty that the last test result is bogus, and should NOT be trusted. This means you should NOT add all that pH UP.

Ben

[mortimay]

How do I add my phone number?

The two tests came from the same pool store with the same lady running the tests?? I did add 1/3 of a bottle of acid because she told me I needed to bring it down because the chlorine would bring it back up? I added 10 bottles of 10% chlorine Friday night and then another 8 bottles Sat night because I did the shot glass test and it showed my chlorine to be at 6. I was thinking it needed to be above 12.

I think I'm getting all the different advice confused??

[mortimay]

I ran a couple more tests using my cheapie kit and test strips. These are my results

Cheapie drop kit:

Cl 15
pH between 6.8 & 7.2
Alk 130


Test strip:
Cl dark purple over 10 (highest it goes)
pH between 6.2 & 6.8
Alk 120

[aylad]

You need to get that pH up. Chlorine, in bleach form, may temporarily raise your pH, but it is for a very short period of time, so don't adjust your pH down just for that. Chlorine in trichlor or dichlor form will drastically drop your pH. So....You need to add some Borax, I'd start with about 1/2 box, slowly into the skimmer with the pump running, breaking up clumps, wait a couple of hours to circulate, retest, then add more if you don't have a pH above 7.0.

Just want to caution you that taking advice from the pool store and from here will get you into trouble and be VERY confusing. You really need to either stick with advice from here, where we are driven to help you get your pool under control, or stick with the pool store's advice, where they are driven to make profits for the pool store. Trying to do both will end badly, I promise! :)

Janet

Edit: After re-reading the thread, I see that you already have pH up, which you can use if you want instead of the Borax. It's the same stuff, only more expensive.

[mortimay]

I don't have the PH up, didn't buy it from them. I do have lots of borax so I will add that and then retest in a couple of hours and will post the results here.

[aylad]

You can add your phone number by clicking on "settings" in the top right corner from the forum main page, then edit your profile from there.

Janet

[CarlD]

Actually Borax and pH Up are not the same thing. Janet mis-spoke. pH Up and Washing Soda are the same thing.
But go ahead and follow the rest of her advice.

Pool store people run results using, mainly a fancier strip than they sell, but it's still a strip, not a drop test. I would trust YOUR pH result of 6.8-7.2 before I'd trust her "5.0".

We send people to get pool store tests only when they cannot do it themselves, but testing yourself is, for most members, far more accurate. I don't think I've EVER brought a water sample to a pool store.

Carl

[mortimay]

She uses a drop test. But she is pushing the chemicals...when I asked her about using borax she agreed that it would work but said the chemicals were better. Her words "you get what you pay for". Anyway, I plan to follow this forums advice exclusively from here on out. I'm all for not using expensive chemicals.

I will ask again: would it be beneficial to partially drain the pool and refill? Is it possible to get this thing clear by this weekend? Does anyone want to come to Indiana and fix it for me??? I think I would be really close had I not had to shut down the pump.

[CarlD]

You could come back to "You get what you pay for" with "knowledge is power!"

Paying $3/lb for Sodium Carbonate, pH Up!, Balance Pack 200, is foolish when you KNOW you can get it for $.80/lb when it's washing soda.

Borax has several advantages over Sodium Carbonate.
It's less corrosive--on your hands it's gentler
It doesn't add T/A to the water
It adds borates to your water and borates inhibit algae growth.

Mainly, I'd shock the heck out of the pool, keep the FC level at the max for the CYA level.

Carl

[mortimay]

added half a box of borax 2 1/2 hours ago. Just checked my pH and it is 7.2. We are about to get hit with a thunderstorm so won't be able to mess with the pool for a while.

If I am to keep my FC level at the max for the CYA level is that using the "best guess" chart? Would that mean for my CYA (18) I would add so that my chlorine is at the level in the far right column (20)?

Do I need to do anything at this time to get my CYA up?

Sorry about all the questions. I am trying to read everything on this site. I know I will get this eventually!! After all, I did fix my pump!

[CarlD]

If your CYA is between 10 and 20, your shock level is an FC of 12ppm.
CYA between 30 and 50: Shock to 15
CYA between 60 and 90: Shock to 20
CYA between 100 and 200: Shock to 25

From the best guess table.

Carl

[aylad]

Actually Borax and pH Up are not the same thing. Janet mis-spoke. pH Up and Washing Soda are the same thing.
l

My point was that the end result would be the same, for all intents and purposes.

Janet

[mortimay]

I checked my numbers this morning:

pH 7.2
Chl 12 using the shot glass method.

The pool is clearer, I can see the skimmer pole on the bottom of the pool. How often do I test? The sun hasn't hit the pool yet this morning. We did get a bunch of rain last night.

[madwil]

the more consistently you can test and maintain the FC, the quicker you'll get past the cloud... every hour is often enough, but 2 times a day is fine if that's all you can do- it'll just take a bit longer to reach the end!

[CarlD]

We generally suggest 3x/day--morning, mid-day sometime, and after sunset. More often than that doesn't hurt but if you want any hope of progress you need a minimum of 2x/day.

Carl

[mortimay]

The green is gone!! The pool is a little cloudy but no longer green. My pH is between 7.2 and 7.5 and my chlorine is about 12 (shot glass method). What should I do now?

[madwil]

your CL was 12 yesterday, and still 12- did you add anything?
you should maintain the CL at shock level until
1- FC holds overnight (<1 ppm difference between sunset and sunrise without adding anything)
2- CC is <.5
3- water clear (some people cut short on this one, but recommend keep it to oxidize the cloud()

[mortimay]

I did a test around 12:30pm yesterday and my pH looked to be about 7.0 so I added 1/4 box of borax. I checked the chlorine around 4pm and it looked about 9 (shotglass method) so I added one gal of 10%. I haven't added anything else since then.

[CarlD]

Sounds good. How's the water looking?

Carl

[mortimay]

The green is gone. I need to vacuum again to get what I missed on the bottom of the pool. The water is a bit cloudy, but I can see the bottom.

[CarlD]

On the right track!

Carl

[mortimay]

What is my next step? Do I continue to keep the chlorine at 12 or should I be getting it down to swimming level?

[CarlD]

I would keep it at shock level until the water is clear. But that's me.

Carl

[mortimay]

Will do. When the water is clear, do I just allow the chlorine level to drop? What about the pH and Alk?

[CarlD]

You always want to keep your pH below 8 and above 7. Although at shock levels of chlorine the pH reads higher than it actually is.

Don't worry about Alk until everything else is good. For now, until your water clears, it's FC, pH and CYA that matters (CYA=stabilizer)

Carl

[mortimay]

thank you!! I am so glad I found this forum. I'm sure I would still be fighting if I would have continued to follow pool store advice. Wish I would have found this site sooner and then listened only to your advice. I'm sure I would have cleaned up my pool a lot quicker (and cheaper).

Thanks again to all who helped!

[CarlD]

"Wish I would have found this site sooner "

Don't we all! And I've been here since 2001! (I think, if not longer)

I started with a 15' round Intex donut pool, used it for 3 years to learn how to manage a pool, then put in a built-in custom 40'x16' rectangular A/G that's more like an IG than AG. I'm opening my 9th season on the bigger pool.

Carl

[mortimay]

Success! My water is crystal clear! I honestly wondered if I would ever get to this point. Too bad it's too cold to swim. I haven't added anything since the 24th. My numbers this morning are:

Chl 5
pH 7.4 (best guess. the color was between 7.2 and 7.5 but closer to 7.5)
Alk 120

How do I go about maintaining? I have a floating chlorine dispenser? Should I put it in? Should I continue testing every day?

Also, does anyone have a solar cover? What are the safe numbers to put it on (I flattened the bubbles on mine last year)?

Any help is appreciated!

[madwil]

As for maintaining, you need to know your CYA amount. If CYA 0, you'll lose FC fast!
otherwise, use the best guess chart to determine what your correct FC is; test FC and pH daily, the rest maybe weekly.
Keep your FC in the range from best guess chart, keep your pH between 7.2 and 7.8...
With your alk, you may notice a rise in pH over time- keep acid on hand to lower it... mine goes up to 7.8, I add 2-3 cups acid and lowers back down about every 3 weeks (will probably be every 2 weeks when it gets warmer! more pump time=more aeration=more pH rise)

[Watermom]

Solar covers are really good at helping you to keep from losing heat overnight that you have gained through the day --- especially in the early spring and early fall. A solar cover can help you squeeze a few extra weeks into your swim season.

[CarlD]

Normally, we say aim for a CYA level of 30. I'm in NJ, so I like to have CYA around 30 for the first half of the season then bump it to 50 for the latter half, when it's really oppressively hot. I adjust my FC level accordingly.
aylad (Janet), down in Louisiana, keeps her CYA at 70-80 and her FC in the 5-10ppm range. Otherwise, at lower CYA levels, she's adding chlorine once or twice a day. Me, up here, I'm adding it every other day at most, usually less.

Carl