The Dreaded Cloudiness!

[dcsharpe]

New BBB user here. First, let me say that I am not a chemist and I have a full time job with 3 children, a husband, and a dog and a cat so as much as I have learned over at TFP, I just can't get all the frequent testing and adding stuff every hour etc., etc., etc. I have come here to see if I can "get it". The instructions I saw on your website were simplified and I had no trouble understanding them. So, I say all that to say......
I have a cloudy pool and I just can't get it clear. I have poured tons of bleach in, a little boric acid, and at the very first, 5 bags of shock and half a bottle of algecide from the pool shop. One week later, I added 4 bags of shock from Wal-Mart and the other half of the bottle of algecide. (In a side note, I read on the box at WM yesterday that the shock I had, had copper in it) Then I added a bout half a box of Borax, a bag of Baking Soda, and half a box of Washing Soda. I didn't add it all at one time but I'm guessing something (perhaps the algecide and copper laced shock) in all that chemistry soup, has not reacted as I hoped. All I have put in over this last week is bleach and boric acid. DUDE! How many bottles of bleach can you buy before homeland security starts looking at you as suspicious?! I did buy some of the WM shock that doesn't have the copper in it. It says it is 58% chlorine. I almost saw the bottom on two different occasions but then I vacuumed and it got milky blue again. It has cleared up enough to see the bottom much quicker this time so am I on the right track? My simple cheap dip sticks show I have 0 stabilizer and I just can't get it to show anything. Honestly, the boric acid seems to have done more than anything but at $2.00 for a 16oz bottle, the pool calculator is not in agreement with the amount I am able to add. (4 bottles so far). I was trying to find a way to not have to have the MA on hand and storing all the large amounts required isn't really feasible for me with all those kids and animals around.

All that confusion to ask this....

Should I use the WM shock with out copper to help bring up the stabilizer some? and
Is there something else I should do?

STATS: AG vinyl liner
27' round
54" deep
ecokleer sand filter 26" tank 200# sand 2.0 hp motor

This morning, with my test strips and my small drop test, my results are

TH-100
TC-3
FC/B-10
PH-6.8
TA-40
S-0

PH-5.0
CL/BR-between 7.2 & 7.6

It rained a bit last night


What do I need to do? I know I need to get the PH up. Should I add the two boxes of Borax that I have or is it pointless to do that if 2 boxes are all I have? I am tired of lugging heavy boxes and bottles from the store. They are looking at me like I am building a bomb or something. How can I do this without all that heavy hauling?

Is there any help?

[CarlD]

While I may be no fan of TFP, I cannot believe anyone over there gave you the advice to take the actions you have taken.
First off, both they and us here will start at the same point: You need a proper drop-test kit, one that uses the FAS-DPD test of chlorination.

Forgive me but your numbers make no sense. You list pH twice, first at 6.8--very low, enough to damage your line, then a 5.0--dangerous and WILL destroy vinyl liners.

You have TC at 3 but FC/B(?) at 10. FC can never be greater than TC, because TC = FC plus CC.

Why is your pool cloudy? Well, if the cloud is white, it might be because of all the "shock" you used. "Shock" is something you do, not something you add, regardless of the label. It is simply a pre-packaged mix of....something. I'm guessing Calcium-Hypchlorite--Cal-Hypo. Lots of Cal-Hypo suddenly can make your water cloudy. But if the cloud isn't white, or your pool is simply not clear, it could be something else.

I cannot, at this time recommend a course of action until we can see better numbers.

If you must, take a sample to a pool store, but don't buy anything, just post the numbers.

Meantime you need a proper drop-test kit. Even a simple OTO- pH test kit will work but the better ones measure to 5ppm of chlorine, not just 3. Use it and post your numbers.

But, if you do decide to follow our advice, please do not try to follow the pool store's advice as well. It won't work. Our methods do work--thousands of people have used them, but not when combined with pool store advice, which is always buy something and add it.

[PoolDoc]

Gee, if some of that is what you're being taught at TFP, I need to read over there some. I'd just assumed they'd cloned the info here.

OK.

Volume 3.14 x 13.5 x 13.5 x 4 (actual water depth = 48"?) = 2290 cft
2290 x 7.48 gal / cft = 17,100 gallons.

Add 2 boxes per evening (slowly, to the skimmer, basket in place, pump running) till your pH is above 7.2. Don't worry about TA, CH now.

You can use bleach or dichlor to chlorinate, given your current readings. I assume "S=0" refers to stabilizer. (Is that the abbreviation they use there?)

Dichlor would add stabilizer, and you can get 50# cheap at Sams (or, probably, Costco). Look for "sodium dichloroisocyanurate" as the ingredient.

No more mixed up stuff. Save it. Once we know your filter is working, we can figure out how to use it safely in your pool.

Going over those abbreviations - you'd better repost with them spelled out. Does "TH" equal "Total hardness"?

How can you avoid heavy hauling?

Probably, you can't till things are adjusted. How old are your kids? A 3-year old can carry a box of borax -- maybe you need 3 kid (instead of a 20 mule) borax team? Once every thing is fixed up, you should be fine. The dichlor will be a pain till you get it there, but it should last most of the summer.

But, bad news: you've got the classic AG pump that's WAY too big for your filter. Send me the model numbers, and I'll try to figure out how bad it is, but there's no way matching a 19" filter with a 2 HP (no matter how they've played the HP ratings games) will work out. If this is not your first pool season, the odds are high that a lot (most?) of the sand has been blown out of your filter when you were backwashing.

You can *TEST* your filter by adding a couple of cups of DE to your skimmer with the pump on -- if you see the DE blow back into the pool via the returns, your filter needs work. I'd recommend going ahead and getting the smallest bag of DE you can, and doing the test. (Save the extra DE -- and you'll probably have a LOT -- to use for other things, later. Put it in a bucket, since the paper bag won't last, but the DE will.)

If your filter is not working well, you probably need to add sand AND reduce flow from your pump to

(19"/2/12"/ft) x (19"/2/12"/ft) x 3.14 => ~2 sft
2 sft x 15 gpm /sft = 30 gpm.

The 20+ GPM / sft rating used on AG pool sand filters is completely bogus. The 15 GPM/sft on IG pool filters is the upper end of what works well. On commercial pools, when I want fast clean up and clear water, I have always designed with 12GPM/sft. If I have multiple filters, so I can backwash independently every so often, I've gone as low as 10 GPM / sft.

My guess is, with a 2HP AG pump, you may be pushing 60 GPM, which is DOUBLE what works well. The problem is that (a) the high pressure and flow actually push the dirt through the filter and (b) the high flow blows your sand out during backwashing. If you supply your model number, I'll try to look and see if you can replace the impeller and diffuser with a 3/4 HP set, which will reduce your flow to a functional level.

Ben

[dcsharpe]

CarlD
I wasn't insinuating that TFP had recommended anything. They are just way too technical with all their chemistry degrees. Over my head. Things seemed to be explained simpler here. There are two sets of numbers because the first set is a 6 way test strip and the second is the drop kit from WM with the two wells for the yellow and red drops. I am aware they are not the most accurate but they are what I have. I live in a rural area and don't have a good source of supplies and I don't have a trailer to take to the store to buy tons of gallons and boxes of stuff. I will have to order most stuff and it will take at least a few days to get here and I know I need to do something quickly to prevent damage. I did figure that much out :)

Ben
Am I going to have to buy M something acid to compensate for the Borax or just start dumping

6 way test strip
TH-total hardness
TC-total chlorine
FC/B-free chlorine/bromine
PH-ph
TA-total alkalinity
ST-stabilizer (I think this would also be CYA right?)

Drop Kit - Sorry, got those backwards
Chlorine/Bromine-5.0 but it is a little brighter yellow than the scale shows
PH-a shade in between the 7.2 and 7.6 reading

I have no idea how to change out any of the pump stuff.
Model # PK1200-6

[chem geek]

The advice at TFP wasn't for any of that pool store advice (algaecide) nor for the borax, baking soda, etc. In fact, I only find two posts (http://www.troublefreepool.com/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=dcsharpe&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search) from dcsharpe over at TFP that are not related to this problem.

In general at TFP, it is first and foremost to get a good test kit because without knowing the true CYA level it will be very hard to know exactly what to do. Nevertheless, adding unstabilized chlorine is usually recommended (usually chlorinating liquid or bleach unless the CH is low) and IF the CYA was known to be zero (say from a far more rapid chlorine loss during the day compared to night) then some CYA could be added either by pure CYA or (faster) by Dichlor. The standard recommendations of 24/7 filtration and brushing the pool are also usually stated.

Those are the good points, though without the proper test kit things are still somewhat of a shot in the dark. Now the bad points. For reasons I do not understand, there is this thought at TFP that chlorine alone (with filtration and brushing) will always clear a pool. Well, they do check to see that a filter is working properly (though not always looking at the pump/filter combo) and sometimes suggest adding DE to a sand filter. However, in my opinion, if there isn't visible progress, especially after a week, then one needs to look at other issues such as what Ben is describing or even the possibility of using a clarifier even though they don't always work. There are other threads with some folks who ended up on their own using a clarifier where in one day the pool was cleared and I did that once in my own pool after a phosphate remover experiment (a freebie from someone at Orenda who came over -- no, I'm not a phosphate remover promoter) when I wanted to quickly clear the pool overnight for my wife to swim in the next day. Now maybe a better filter/media/flow rate would have worked, but if one doesn't have that then a clarifier can at least consolidate particles so they are bigger and get caught in the less-than-ideal filter. Of course, if one already has calcium carbonate saturation for a plaster pool, then one can use additional techniques of creating precipitation in the filter by raising pH via the skimmer (a technique sometimes done to capture metal oxides), but for vinyl pools the CH is typically too low for that.

There is also the issue with above-ground pools that the bottom circulation is typically awful because there are no floor drains, pop-ups, low-positioned returns, etc. Circulation is critical to get cloudy water to the filter so pointing a return diagonally downward can stir things up as can regular brushing. The symptom for this is where the surface water looks OK but one cannot see the bottom clearly.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, but I pretty much stayed out of the recent threads with persistant cloudiness since I've put in my 2 cents before and been overridden on this particular issue, especially when it comes to using a clarifier (as a last resort or when speed is desired and cost is not a concern).

[dcsharpe]

Guys, let me say that I am in no way trying to offend or belittle anyone's advice. I just don't have any experience and am looking for layman's terms. I am a nurse and am no way stupid, just ignorant. It is like this, if I were to talk to you about medical stuff, I wouldn't realize that I wasn't speaking so that someone who isn't working the field could understand. I understand that the intricacies of the chemicals are important but I just want to know the basics. I go to work. I can not sit by my pool all day taking samples and adding chemicals every hour on the hour. It might be nice if I could though :) Perhaps the BBB method is not for me since I just seem to be getting more and more confused and am saying all the wrong things and offending people. I never have enough info in my questions and something is always wrong with what I do or did. It just isn't "trouble free" for me. How much does it cost to hire a pool person? lol!
Donna

FWIW- my water is cloudy. In layman's terms, clouds are white. I am starting to be able to see the bottom except after I vacuum and stir it all up.

[aylad]

Hi Donna,

I'd like to welcome you to the forum--and assure you that pool care really doesn't have to be a pain and involve lugging lots of heavy stuff, we just have to help figure out your pool's problem in order to get you to that point.

I first wanted to clarify something in Pooldoc's post, when he said "Add 2 boxes per evening (slowly, to the skimmer, basket in place, pump running) till your pH is above 7.2.", he meant Borax--the stuff in the green box. The purpose of the Borax is to raise your pH so it gets to a level that's safe for your liner, so you won't need muriatic acid to lower it. (There are two reasons why we recommend adding a lot of Borax. The first is to raise your pH. The second is the addition of lots of Borax and muriatic acid, and that's done when you're trying to raise your borates to help as an algaecide and clarify water. The reason you're adding the Borax is to raise pH, which is why you don't need to worry about the acid for now.)

I can assure you that you haven't reached the point yet where Homeland security is worried about the quantity of bleach you're using--I think I hold that title around here due to an overreaction to a situation in my pool a few years ago. :) :) However, you will need to either keep a good quantity of bleach or dichlor on hand until you get your stabilizer up. You can get the stabilizer in a small quantity and add it via a sock tied in front of a return while you're using bleach to chlorinate, or you can use the granulated dichlor, which will also add stabilizer. It will, however, lower your pH, so you might have to keep adding the borax for awhile to compensate for it.

In the meantime, get the smallest amount of DE you can find, drop a handful of it in your skimmer and watch the returns to test your filter as Pooldoc described, and then post here with your results and we can help you go from there.

Janet

[CarlD]

DC:

It sounded as if you said TFP told you to take those steps. While there are differences in approach between them and us, those differences are minor compared to the rest of the world and what pool stores tell you. In other words, as Chem_Geek has pointed out they tend to be more wedded to the idea that bleach/Liquid Chlorine is the only way to go, and we are willing to use the other forms of chlorine more. Right now, I have a floater full of tri-chlor pellets in my pool. Why? I need stabilizer, my pH is controllable, and they provide a constant feed of chlorine while they provide stabilizer. Plus I had 'em lying around so I put them to APPROPRIATE use. It's not that TFP is "wrong" and we are "right", though our directions may be clearer and wider ranging. They simply have a different "take" on the B-B-B approach, but overall, their advice should not be too different than ours. It stems from the same root.

OK, let's get to what you need to do and not beat the PF vs TFP dead horse any further.

You said you're pretty far out in a rural area, so getting to a pool store with a sample may be tough. But if you can, that would be good and would give us a better baseline of where you are coming from.

You should also get a proper FAS-DPD test kit--you can't get them in stores but you can order them on line. TaylorTechnologies.com has their K-2006 and K-2006C, the basic kit we recommend. I also recommend from Leslies On Line their Chlorine FAS-DPD Service Test Kit. It's the same as the Taylor but stuck into a Leslies box. All the chemicals ("Reagents" in tech talk) are the same as the K-2006. TFP also makes a kit but I can't give you any details about it other than I believe it's FAS-DPD as well.

Meanwhile, you can extend the range of your OTO/pH kit using Steam Distilled water, available at your local supermarket or discount drug chain. If you mix pool water with distilled water 1:1 you double the range of the tester. If your reading with the diluted water is "3", it's really "6". If you use 2 parts distilled to 1 part pool water you TRIPLE the range. If your "cell" measures to 5 for chlorine it now goes to 15! Search our site for the CarlD Shotglass Method.
Please try to get us the best readings you can from the OTO/pH kit.
The strips can give us a rude idea of total hardness, total alkalinity, and CYA/Stabilizer levels, but their TC, FC and pH readings are not nearly as accurate as your OTO/pH drop kit. (I'm assuming WM means WalMart* OTO/pH test kit).

When Ben said "add 2 boxes every evening" he didn't say that he meant 2 boxes of Borax (yes, 20 Mule Team Borax) but that's what he meant. Trust me on this.

For now, the rest of his advice, plus a proper kit, is your first set of steps.

Start with that.

Good luck,

Carl