chlorine levels

[fhorta]

i'm batling mustard algae (brown dust looking deposits bottom of pool and walls) iread other posts and state that chlorine levels need to be about 20 to 25 ppm for chlorine to have an effect on this nasty stuff. i have a test kit that measures clorine, br, and ph, only. cl only goes to 5 or 6. how do i know if i have clorine levels of 20 to 25 ppms'.

not sure how to read this things. sorry for the elementary question and thanks.

[PoolDoc]

The problem you describe is the very reason that years ago I began promoting FAS-DPD testing, via the Taylor K2006. It's the most practical way to manage the range of chlorine levels needed on outdoor stabilized swimming pools.

For now, purchase a cheap OTO (drops turn yellow) test kit, and test your pH and chlorine. THEN add chlorine till your OTO sample turns orange instead of yellow. At that level, your pH test (phenol red) will no longer be reliable.

Hold dark yellow to orange chlorine levels, while brushing regularly.

Meanwhile order a K2006 test kit (the cheapest way to get DPD-FAS testing) using the Amazon links below. (CAUTION: only order if the link shows "Amato Industries, Inc.. " as the seller. Other sellers may deliver the non-FAS-DPD K2005.)

Report back with your test results. If you have stabilizer level info from your dealer, include that.

Ben

[fhorta]

Thanks. I bought some yellow treat and didn't do anything. Bouguht some de and psi goes too high at 13. Just can't get rid of this stuff. I'll try keeping it Orange for some days and order the kit.

[CarlD]

There's no easy magic cure. Just lots and lots of chlorine. The "treatments" do no good for algae.
To use DE in a sand filter do the following
1. Backwash
2. add about 1/4 to 1/3 cup DE through the skimmer.
3. Wait 30-60 minutes. If the pressure has not gone up, add some more DE.
4. Your goal is to increase PSI by 1 to 2 psi, no more.
5. If you increase it too much, just backwash to clear it and start again.

BTW, why do you think 13 psi is too high? My normal PSI is 20 and I backwash when I see it go past 25psi.

Carl

[fhorta]

I just assume 13 psi is too high becus when I feel water coming out of return jet feels weak. Like something preventing flow. When I back wash pressure feels strong again ane psi goes down to 7-8. I been going at it with this thing for almost 2 weeks maintaining high cl levels. Is this still considered normal or should I seen some results. Considering vacuuming to waste see if it works. Ill keep high cl and filter pump going for another day or so see what happens. Thanks.

[CarlD]

You are right: It should feel really strong at the return, whatEVER the pressure is! Here's a case where you know your pool best. If I saw 13psi, I'd be worried something was blocking my drains. If I saw 7psi, I'd be sure of it. But that's because for me, 20psi is normal and 25psi is when the force of the return flow drops---same 5psi increase as you have.

Now, we still don't know what you consider a "high" chlorine level. Nor do we know your CYA (stabilizer) level. The CYA level affects what the ideal Chlorine level is, both for shocking and for maintenance.

You can increase the range (but not the accuracy) of your OTO test kit with distilled water--only steam distilled, not ionized. Chain drug stores and supermarkets have it by the gallon. You can search our forum for the CarlD Shot Glass method, but here's how it works.
mix one shot glass of pool water with one shot glass of distilled.
Mix and pour into your test cell (the gadget with the scale). Whatever the chlorine reading is, double it.
Or, you can use 2 shots of distilled to one of pool water. Now whatever the chlorine reads, TRIPLE it! If the scale reads to 5, you can now measure to 15.
3 shot: You can measure to 20ppm!

But.....you MUST be careful measuring and mixing as your accuracy goes down with each level of dilution.

And, yes, you really do need to keep your chlorine level at (probably) at least 15ppm if you want the pool to clear. Now I opened to lime green "jello" on Saturday. It was disgusting Today's Wednesday and my water is clear. Why? I hammered it with chlorine immediately and kept at it, intending first to kill the algae, THEN clean it up. I'm now using Tri-chlor (gasp!) that I had left around because my pH is a tad high and my CYA (stabilizer) was non-existent. As a temporary fix, GIVEN MY POOL'S CHEMISTRY, they are ideal. The tabs keep a constant level of chlorine, are increasing my CYA (which I need), and lowering my pH, which I also need. So I'm not bothering to add baking soda or borax at this time, sticking with chlorine.

For another poster with CYA of 60 and a pH of 7.0, I STRONGLY recommended they stay away from Tri-chlor tabs and Di-chlor powder. They don't need a lower pH and a higher CYA level, it will make things worse. Yet it's still simple to do.

All the best,

Carl

[fhorta]

I have been adding 8 lbs of granular tri-chlor to pool (20k gal) in the evening and 4 lbs in am. Started doing this on 5/10. in the morning cl reads dark orange (before adding 4lbs). in the evening before adding 8lbs cl reads dark yellow. pump beein going 24/7. psi at 10 after adding about 1/8 cup of de.

i can only brush in the am and the evening when get home from work. dont want to get too excited but seems algae clearing just a tad bit.

just a little worried about alll the cya in this granular chlorine. ph reads dark purple but since cl is so high, ph is not reliable, right? hopefully progress will continue.

[Watermom]

Unless I missed it, I didn't see what your cya reading is. Do you have it?

[madwil]

If you've been adding triclor, you've been adding CYA; to much will make it harder to kill algae!
Recommend you use straight bleach or liquid chlorine, at least til you kill the algae and find out what your CYA level is

[fhorta]

i dont have a current cya reading. havent had the chance to get a water test. i just been keeping cl dark orange to dark yellow.

last night when i got home psi was at 12. felt return jet pressure and felt little weak. i backwashed and light blue-ish stuff came out. psi went down to 7 and return jet pressure felt stronger . added de again and this morning psi at 9. and jet pressure still strong.

the color of the stuff i'm dealing with has definitely changed from a noticeable brown for the most part. now when i brush i see a whitish cloud rise up from the pool floor. so there is definitely stuff still on the floor. i am wondering if its the residue of the granular chlorine i been putting in.

what i plan on doing is doubling the clorine this evening (16lbs) because i thought about cya levels increasing meaning cl levels need to increase too to have affect. going to leave pump on one more night. tomorrow will take water sample and tested. plan on vacuuming to waste after wards. can't think of anything else to do.

i will be taking some distiilled water home tonight and will do a cl range read as instructed. if i do get a reading between 15-25ppm, which is recommended to fight this stuff, will this be the actual cl reading regardless of the cya levels? in other words, a cl level of 15ppm is exactly that regardless of the cya levels? my T2006 test kit is on the way. thanks

[aylad]

Yes, your chlorine level is what it reads, regardless of the CYA level. However, with all the trichlor you're adding, you are also greatly increasing your CYA. You would really be doing yourself a favor to switch to bleach or liquid chlorine. Remember that you're going to have to keep a higher level of chlorine in the pool the higher your CYA is. Eventually you're going to have to switch chlorine sources so your CYA doesnt get so high you can't compensate for it--now would be a good time to do that so there's one less problem to deal with

Janet

[fhorta]

sorry if i'm posting twice. didnt see my last reply posted.

i will try to get some liquid cl/bleach. kind of hard right now. if i'm not able to can i do partial drain and refill with fresh water to bring cya down? this off course would be after dealing with this algae.

also, if i am able to get some liquid cl, how much would i use? again, 20k gal inground pool. never used liquid before.

well i would imagine instructions would be on container of liquied cl. but what if i get store bleach. how many gallons of that stuff would i throw in? thanks again.

[aylad]

When you originally make a post, it goes into a queue for one of us mods or Ben to look at, and won't show up on the forum until we approve it. Sometimes it takes an hour or two, but between the 5 of us, somebody is usually on the forum most all day. I deleted your other duplicate post.

IN a 20K pool, each 2 1/2 quarts of 6% bleach will raise your FC by roughly 2 ppm. Most of us use the regular, generic Ultra bleach from WalMart.

You can do a partial drain and refill with fresh water in order to lower your CYA. Just don't drain too much at one time so that you don't float your pool.

Janet

[fhorta]

Ok. Got it.

Went ahead and purchased walmart clorox. Threw 4 gallons of it last night. This morning the pool floor looked better than it has looked in a long time. Seems like it worked. Also back washed and added de before throwing clorox in. Been vaccuming all day. Will throw in other 2 or 4 gallons of clorox and run pump all night again.

Tried shot glass cl measurement and according to readings my cl was 20 ppm last night before throwing in clorox. Also tested water this morning and was told my cl was high, which I knew and also ph. Said cya was fine at 30?

Weird. Seems I had the adequate cl and cya to get rid of this stuff but I guess water preferred clorox rather than granular chlorine I was using..? Hopefully I can get rid of this stuff completely within next couple days with clorox. Also went ahead and got some liq chlorine from les lies. Wl be using this stuff until algae is totally gone. I will also plan on changing sand filter. You think this may be necessary? Thanks for the great advice everyone.

[aylad]

If you mean changing oit the sand in your existing filter, it's probably not necessary, unless you've recently converted from bacquacil. Glad you're making progess with the bleach-- sounds like you just had to get that cl high enough to get over the "hump"!!

Janet

[fhorta]

ok. i was just thinking since traces of algae may be left in sand i would change sand out.

well, since last post pool floor still looks good.

the only thing is that when i brush the floor, plastic brush or wire brush, this stuff still there. not as noticeable anymore. not as thick or brown. but a thin pale cloud still there when i brush. had 20ppm of clorine constantly at least since may 10th. what else could this stuff be:

my pool is plaster- could this stuff be residue from the plaster like if plaster was wearing away?
could it be residue from all the tri-clor ganules i've been putting in?
could it be pollen?
again, this stuff is not in patches or some here and some there. it is evenly distributed throughout the whole pool flooor and walls.
i have nothing covering my pool. its opened to the environment. should i just assume that i'm always gone have something on my pool floor whenever i brush, like dust/silth and it's never going to be completely clean?

assuming this stuff is algae, and it's dead, if i throw in some algae preventer will it still work?

how can i know what this stuff is? i have made some progress thanks to this forum's advice. just wish i could get rid if this stuff completely so that i know my children will be safe going in.

ps- the distilled water i've been using to do the shotglass cl measurement has fluoride in it. would this throw off the readings?

[fhorta]

the amazon link does not show amato industries as the seller for the k2006 test kit. it shows it for the k2006c kit. should i still buy from the non-amato sellers?

[Watermom]

I would buy the K2006C from Amato Industries if it were me. That is the same kit as the 2006 but just has a larger bottle of some of the reagents. (I'll let Ben know that the 2006 is not shown as from Amato at this time like it was and hopefully will be again. Maybe they have just sold all they had in stock since we have been referring so many people to buy that kit!)

Regarding the distilled water ------ distilled water should have NOTHING in it. Tap water has fluoride in it, but distilled does not.

Lastly, regarding the pool ---- can you turn off the pump and let everything settle and then slowly vacuum to see if you can pick up whatever the silt is?

[fhorta]

would fluoride throw off cl readings significantly?

i will vacuum to waste saturday morning after leaving pump off all friday night.

with kit, are the reagant bottles refillable and will any taylor refill bottles work with this kit? for example, will the oto refillable bottles we purchase at local pool stores work with this k2006 test kit? thanks

[Watermom]

I doubt fluoride would impact the results.

You can buy replacement reagents for the kit but you cannot use the OTO kit reagents.

[fhorta]

purchased the k2006 kit through amazon. hopefully wont be a bad experience (delivery and item delivered). thanks .

[fhorta]

i had a pool tech come out to look at my pool for free. specializes in pool construction and has a pool supply store.

he said that brown dust is a result of previuos owners covering up the pool surface with "epoxy" paint to make it look decent when selling the home. he said this is not algae i'm dealing with.

this was his prognosis:

the epoxy paint is coming off in some places and getting very thin in other areas. due to the thinning and wearing of the epoxy, the plaster beginning to be exposed; aso understand that plaster has sandmix in it.
so the brownish looking dust and brown spots (pool floor does have several small brown spots in different areas) are due to sand that is mixed with the plaster, especially where the plaster is very thin.

how does this sound? kind of makes sense to me.

my question/s then:

if not algae, why when i poured clorox pool floor cleared up quite a bit? i will note that i was having no success with granular chlorine.

his explanation was that there must of been some sort of reaction that bleach caused on this plaster/sandmix or that granular chlorine coupled with other water chemicals did not have the same affect that pure bleach coupled with other water chemicals balances had on the pool floor, or something to that effect.

so basically then, the coat that covers the pool surface is wearing thin and therefore plaster, sandmix, cement, etc... are being exposed and thus when i brush i will always be brushing exposed areas and will always have this brown stuff pick up whenever i brush. so to solve the problem, i need to repaint, or replaster...

just wanted to share and ask for yoour oppinions, thoughts. what do you all think. thanks

[madwil]

The epoxy story is believable, but maybe doesn't explain it all...
If it cleared up some initially, then got to a hold point, and the cloud really is sand/epoxy crud, I would guess initially you also had algae as part of the mix and killed it, and left now with just the other mess.
If it really is epoxy flakes and sand, it should filter out

[fhorta]

i was thinking the same. must of been something else in the mix that was killed off with chlorine.

i also asked if this stuff should be filtering out. he said some may but some may filter through because so fine. i really dont have big flakes floating around, but just that light colored dust cloud ..that can be white in color too. i imagine is the actual plaster residue coming up when i brush. kind of makes me think i'm damaging the floor by brushing.

but even if all this stuff on the pool floor is vacuumed or filtered out, when i brush again, the brush will brush more of this stuff off the pool surface because it's exposed????? so until i replaster and paint over to protect the surface, then as long as i brush i will always be scrubbing this stuff up??
thats what my understanding was.

i have a pool blaster vacuum and the finest filter cloth that was made for that vacuum. i know it's not fine enough. already tried vacuuming with it and i see the white stuff pass right thru the cloth and back in the water. i will try to line the inside of the filter cloth with a nylon panty hose see if i can catch some of the stuff.

[fhorta]

i poured 4 lbs of cal hypo granular chlorine into pool last night. this morning right on the areas that i poured granules there was this whitish clouds setting on the pool floor. look just like what i was allgedly dealing with (brownish dust deposits) during this posts. so i concluded that: this same stuff i was trying to get rid of was being caused by the same chemicals i was using to get rid of the stuff; at least by in large part.

can some one shed any light on the reaction that cal hypo would have on a plaster pool; plaster that is fading..would this whitish cloud be something to be expected. not all over the pool floor, but just on those areas where the granules settled. looks like the residue left behind by the granules...dont have my kit yet to get other chemical readings but cl is over 5 (dark yellow) and ph about 7.5-7.8. cl was about 1 when before i poured the granules last night.

thanks.

[madwil]

I'm not sure- maybe Chemgeek or waste will have an answer (or one of the others)

[chem geek]

Cal-Hypo should usually be pre-dissolved in a bucket of pool water and then when added to the pool by pouring over a return flow with the pump running, any residue should be swept with a pool brush. You do not want to add concentrated chemicals quickly in one place since some of them can settle to the bottom and cause problems. You are fortunate you have a plaster pool because with a vinyl pool such settling of Cal-Hypo could have bleached the liner.

If this white powder is easily brushed away, then it's undissolved Cal-Hypo. If it doesn't dissolve with circulation, then it may be residue from the Cal-Hypo -- basically filler -- which is probably not harmful, but is annoying and yet another reason to use chlorinating liquid or bleach instead of Cal-Hypo, or at least to use another brand.

[fhorta]

so i heard (dissolve solids in water first before pouring in). and all this time i was trying to get rid of it as i poured 8lbs at a a time thinking it was something else...now i know. thanks.