New pool owner and have MANY questions. Need help!

[Txboynjgirl]

I just moved into a new home that has a salt water pool. The previous owners did not leave any instructions or manuals. I am trying to learn the ins and outs so I don't have to pay someone $$$ for simple upkeep or repair.

I just discovered this website so I haven't had alot of time to read with my job, 5 year old boy bouncing off the wall, and colicky daughter.

I have Goodline controls with a AquaRite Cell. I have a Hayward Sand Filter. My pool is 22,500 gallons (shallow and a deep end w/diving board).

My question is...please be gentle because I really don't know what I'm doing and I don't know all the pool lingo.

I have opened my pool for a week now. I took a water sample to (leslie's) and did what they recommeded. I bought their shock, calcium, and stablizer. I bought baking soda and salt from a nonpool store instead of their stuff.
My water was green with algae and now it's gone. But, my water is cloudy. I would say it not real bad. It's kinda clear in the shallow end but get's cloudy on the deep end.

Should I get another water test? Or are they going to seel me some unecessary product? I put some water balancer in it today.
I leave my pump on for about 10 hours...do I need to leave it on longer?
Also, when I add chemicals to my pool...do I leave it on recirculate or filter? I heard both answers...Also, do I add directly to the water or in the skimmers?

I have some dirt or sand at the bottom of the pool. Will my Polaris pick it up or do I need to vaccum it out? My Polaris was broken so I am trying to fix it and run it.

I'm new so I would take any advice from anyone.

Steve

[PoolDoc]

Hi Steve;

Welcome to the PoolForum!

Pools can be pretty intimidating when you are just starting, or even when you aren't. We can help some, especially with the chemistry.

One of the first ideas you need to get a hold on is that pool stores depend, for their profits, on selling you things you don't need. In the US, the pool chemical biz is over $1,000,000,000 per year. If pool owners did their pools right, and bought only what they needed, that figure would shrink by over $500,000,000 per year -- more than enough to bankrupt most chemical stores and pool chemical brands.

Now, that doesn't mean everyone in the pool store is a crook: they've been TAUGHT that you need the goop they're selling. But you need to understand that, whether they know it or not, they HAVE to sell you stuff you don't need, or their store would go broke!

So, you have to control them; you can't let them control you.

You asked if they would sell you products you didn't need. The answer is, they already have: at a minimum, you didn't need to add the calcium. It's even possible that the cloudiness may be related to that!

Here's stuff for you to do, step by step:


1) Till your pool is clear, run your pump 24/7.
2) Don't backwash your filter too often. (Do you know how to backwash? Do you have a pressure gauge on the filter? What does it read before . . . AND after backwashing?)
3) Get a cheap OTO / phenol red test kit TODAY from Walmart or wherever, and test your pool. Post both those results and the results you got from the pool store here. While you're there, buy 10 gallons of plain 6% household bleach and 4 boxes of 20 mule team borax (both in detergent section).
4) Add 5 gallons of bleach this evening.
5) Do NOT add any (more?) clarifier, algicide, enzyme, phosphate product, metal product, flocculant, sequestrant, or miracle pool goop.
6) Vacuum and brush your pool.
7) Purchase a K2006 test kit (Amazon links below) -- hold off on the salt kit for now, unless you really want one.

If your pool store has a repair or service operation, you may want to hire them to come out and show you how to do all the following:
+ backwash.
+ clean the pump and skimmer strainers.
+ vacuum.
+ vacuum to waste.
+ prime the pump and restart it.

We can tell you, but it's a lot easier for most people to learn by watching than by reading.

About your Polaris -- I haven't kept up with all the models they've released in the past 5 years, but if your Polaris has mesh bag filter, it will pick up big stuff (bugs, leaves, etc.) but not small stuff (dirt, dead algae, etc.).

Ben

[CarlD]

Hi Steve,

What you can also do is have the pool store give you test results and NOT buy anything. You could tell them you're just checking to see how all the garbage, OOPS! I mean "fine products" they sold you are working, or that your friend wants to see the numbers (that's no lie. You'll find we are your friends), whatever. Just don't buy anything.
Then post the test results here--we can help you understand the gibberish.

BTW, is your pool vinyl-lined or a hard pool, like concrete, tile,plaster, etc.? If it's the latter you MAY need to maintain a calcium level in a certain range (not hard to do), but we'll sort that out later. However, if it's vinyl, you absolutely, positively have no need for calcium.

One last thing: When you bought salt was it sea salt, like the kind you use for water softeners? If so, I believe that's the correct kind.

Carl

[Txboynjgirl]

I have a vinyl-lined pool. I guess I wasted $33.00 on calcium hardness flakes. That won't happened again. I bought my pool salt at Wal-Mart. I'm pretty sure that I'm safe on that.
I will be going to the pool store tomorrow to see what they have to say. Trust me, I will not buy anything. Thanks, Carl.



I know how to backwash. My pressure gauge on my filter does not work. A pool man who kinda helped me said that pressure gauges on these (salt) systems usually breaks and that it wasn't necessary to replace it. He said to backwash once a week.

Is it safe to add bleach and/ borax to a salt water pool? I heard you can do that to chlorine pools. I guess the bleach is the Pool "shock". When I add the bleach...should I have the control on recirculate or filter? I always get two different answers on this. Also, if it is recirculate...for how long than switch to filter?

I haven't vaccum yet. I really need too. Is there a difference on vacuum and vacumm to waste?

I will try the things you mention and I really appreciate all the help and making this less stressful. Thanks, Ben.

Steve

[aylad]

I would replace the pressure gauge. They're not that expensive, and pools rarely needto be backwashed weekly. Eventually you'll learn how your pool "acts", and it may not be as necessary, but for now you really need to get a new gauge.

You can safely add bleach and borax to a salt pool. Salt pools are chlorine pools, the only difference is thatthe chlorine is generated from the salt instead of added in the form of bleach. Many people with SWCGs use bleach for their shocking and the SWCG for regular chlorination.

Backwashing to waste means what you vacuum out goes straight out of your waste line, bypassing the filster. "regular" vacuuming directs the stuff into your filter.

Janet

[CarlD]

What Jan is saying is whoever told you that you "must" have your filter set to "recirculate" rather than "filter" when you add bleach is full of it. It has NO negative effect. However, having it set to "Waste" or "Backwash" will dump your new chlorine down the drain.

If you remember your HS chemistry, the formula for salt is NaCl, or Sodium Chloride. Salt-water generators break the salt down for the chlorine ions. BTW, bleach is made from brine.

Carl

[chem geek]

In other words, a "salt water" pool IS a chlorine pool. It uses a saltwater chlorine generator (SWCG) to generate chlorine from the chloride ions from the salt that was dissolved in the pool. When the chlorine gets used by killing a pathogen or oxidizing an organic or getting broken down by sunlight, it gets reverted back to chloride ion. So the SWCG can be thought of as using electricity to boost the energy of chloride to chlorine which then goes on to kill the nasties or oxidize bather waste or interact with sunlight in which cases its energy is given up and it reverts back to chloride salt.

[CarlD]

Thought i said that! :)

[Txboynjgirl]

I came back from the pool store and their test results were:

FAC 3
TAC 3
pH 7.6
TA 80
CYA 40
CH 200
Salt 3300 (my aqua rite reads 2900)

My own simple test results:

pH 7.5
CL 2 (close but mot quite 3)

Should I still add the 5 gallons of bleach? Would that raise my chlorine too much? Isn't 1.5 gallons of bleach equal to 5 ppm? (22000 gallon pool)

Do you buy your CYA (chlorine stabilizer) at the pool store?

For future references...what are the measurments for the Borax? 1lb of Borax equals how much pH?

Thanks, I will run more filter 24/7 to help clear it up.

Steve

[aylad]

Thought i said that! :)


Thought I said it too!!

Anyway, back to the questions.... 1.5 gallons of bleach in a 22000 gallon pool actually should raise your chlorine by about 4, and you don't even achieve shock level with a CYA of 60 until you get it up to 20 ppm, so if you're still trying to kill an algae bloom, you definitely need to go ahead and add the bleach per Pooldoc's instructions, and try to maintain the 20 ppm by adding chlorine as often as you can during the day in order to kill off the bloom. The filter running 24/7 will remove the dead algae from the water, but the chlorine is what will actually kill it.

You can get CYA at WalMart, in the pool/spa section, or at the pool store.

How much Borax it takes to raise pH by a certain amount depends on your TA level.. The higher the TA, the more Borax it will take to make the pH move. Somewhere around here there's a calculation for it, but I'll have to search for it and come back to edit this post...



Janet

[Txboynjgirl]

Thanks Janet. I have learned more on this site the last couple of days than talking to a pool person or searching other internet sites. Hopefully, my blueish cloudy pool will be ready for this weekend.

[aylad]

Keep that chlorine up and the filter running, and odds are good you'll be ready! :)

Glad you're finding the forum helpful.

Janet

[Watermom]

By the way --- when buying cya it is sometimes called Conditioner or Stabilizer. Check the label ingredients. If it says cyanuric or isocyanuric acid, that is the right stuff.

[Txboynjgirl]

I left my pool running 24 hours. The deep end is still very blue and it seems alittle bit cloudy. The shallow end is pretty good. I guess I need the pump run 24 until it clears up. It is expect to rain today.

I did add 4.5 gallons of bleach.

BTW is it better to vaccum DIRT to the filter or go to waste. I did it the other day to the filter and it looked like to shoot it back into the pool. I hope I don't have to change my filter sand. I think it is about 4-6 years old. What say you?

[PoolDoc]

If dirt shoots back into the pool when you vacuum, you have a problem.

1) Your pump may be too big for the filter, and is forcing the dirt through the sand.
2) Your pump may be too big for the filter, and has blown sand out during backwashes,
so now you don't have enough in the filter.
3) Your filter may have some other problem.

Fix #1 by putting a valve between the pump and the filter, and closing it partially OR by having a service guy replace the pump's impeller and diffuser with the next size smaller (not possible on all pumps) OR by buying a new smaller pump OR by buying a bigger filter.

Fix #2 by opening the filter and adding filter sand. Then, since your pump is STILL too big, consider your options in #1
above.

Fix #3 by repairing (?? whatever it takes -- I dunno what all it might need.) your filter.

Just to be sure, you can do the "DE filter test" on the filter. (There are a few types of dirt sand filters won't catch -- even when they work properly.) Add a small amount of DE ( 2 cups should be plenty) to your skimmer while the pump is on. Watch your pool returns for 5 minutes. If the DE shoot back out into the pool, you have filter problems.

Oh yeah: DEFINITELY run the pump 24/7 till you are ALL cleaned up.

Ben

[Txboynjgirl]

Oh geez, it's always something... my test cell might (I think it doesn't have much life, about 4-5 years old) be going out and now the pump situation.

When I opened the pool, a pool person helped me for a small fee. He was checking out my setup. I remembered he replaced my impeller...maybe this is the cause? Also, it seems like my pump is louder. It's located next to my bedroom window and you can hear it pretty good. Maybe I need new bearings.

I have Hayward pump HP1 Amps 15.0/7.5 HZ 60 Volts 115/230

My Hayward Sand Filter is MD S244T. I am checking websites and it seems to be the right pump motor.

I installed a pressure gauge and it's reading about 14-15 psi.

[Txboynjgirl]

To touch on the last comment. When I purchased the house in late September. I did see the pool and it looked like it was in great shape. Very clear water...and no dirt. When I moved in, I closed the pool since I have 2 small kids. (I installed a baby guard fence). I'm just puzzled that many things are going wrong.

I would think a 1HP pump would be just right for a 22,000 gallon pool.

[madwil]

The pump that comes with filters is often larger than needed- the Tim Taylor effect!
The dirt that comes back in your pool- is it really fine? Sand filters will sometimes pass really fine stuff, in which case you need to add some DE to the filter to help it out...
Backflush filter
Note the pressure
You can get some DE, add some (maybe 1/2 cup) to the skimmer on your pool and let it suck into the filter
Watch the returns and see if the DE comes back into the pool- if not, your filter is fine (pump may still be oversize, but the filter will work!)
If the DE does not come back into the pool, keep adding DE 1/2 cup til your pressure raises 1 psi
Now the DE will help your sand get that really fine stuff out
Next time you backflush, the DE will come out the waste side... if the fine dirt returns, you'll just have to add more DE!

[Txboynjgirl]

The dirt is really fine.

I will try adding some DE over the weekend.

If the DE does or does NOT come back into the pool, keep adding DE 1/2 cup til your pressure raises 1 psi?

If the DE does come out...I may have to call the pool man but what shall I do? I don't want to get "$ hosed $". What would you asked him to look at or test?

I am hoping the DE will do the trick.

Water is still blue but it is improving...it's been running 48 hours straight. What is the typical time of running your pump for 24 hours to get the pool cleared?

On a scale of 1-10 (10 being sparkling clear) I would give it a 8. (Deep end still has a way to go.)

[aylad]

It can take several days for it to completely clear, depending on how bad it was to begin with.

If the DE blows back into the pool, I would stop adding it, because it's all going to end up back in your pool water or on the pool floor to be vacuumed, and will defeat the purpose of adding it. If it does not come back into the pool, give it about 30 minutes and recheck your pressure, and add more a little at a time until the pressure rises 1 psi. Note: I'm told this doesn't happen immediately, so give it 20-30 minutes in between doses.

If the DE comes out, then we'll tackle that then....

Janet

[Txboynjgirl]

I added some DE powder to my filter. I did not see any returns. My psi did raise from 14 to 15.

Some of the dirt is actual sand. I thought it might of been pollen. I'll try vacuuming the pool after awhile and hopefully the DE and sand filter will get the job done.

[Txboynjgirl]

About 45 minutes later, I noticed my jets acting funny...(very low pressure).

I looked at the pressure gauge and it read 28 psi. I decided to backwash and now it's back to normal at 14 psi. I only added about 1 lb (1/2 pound and 20 minutes later the other 1/2).

[aylad]

That's too much DE. I think when Watermom adds hers, she adds more like a cupful. It takes 20-30 minutes for the complete pressure rise to happen.

Janet

[Watermom]

The first couple of times I added DE to my sand filter, the same thing happened -- my pressure shot up too far. I was expecting the pressure rise to happen quickly and when it didn't, I added a little more and then a few minutes later it was way too high. It takes a couple of tries to figure out how your filter is going to react. As Janet said, take it slow and wait a bit before you add more. If you overshoot the 1psi rise, do a quick backwash and try again. Eventually you learn how much is required for your particular setup.

[Txboynjgirl]

Thanks for the infomation....

My water is crystal clear now. YEAH!

About the sand in my pool. I had helped from a pool guy when opening the pool. (I wished I discovered this site before this)He said to backwash 2 times a day for a week. I did that. Do you think that helped contribute to the sand in my pool?


I will add some DE and be careful.

[CarlD]

It should have had no effect. But there's no reason to backwash unless your pressure increases, especially enough to affect the force of the return flow.

Glad it's all clear. Time to swim!

Carl

[Txboynjgirl]

I noticed more sand in my pool. I guess it's time to call the repairman. Any suggestions to look for besides checking out the laterals?

[Txboynjgirl]

I noticed the sand appears when the filter is running. When it is off I guess it is spread out over the entire bottom of pool and hard to see.

NOw, I have a white cloudy substance coming out of my jwall/jet (where I hook up my polaris). The other two jets are fine. Nothing (no white cloud) coming out.

What does this mean? I have not added any DE since Monday (1/2 cup).

Please help before I tear my hair out of my head.

[Txboynjgirl]

Also, some bubbles coming out too.

[aylad]

Sounds like an air leak--do you notice an air bubble in the pump basket before the pump is turned on? Or obvious water leaking anywhere? What about water standing on the multiport handle?

Janet

[Txboynjgirl]

I did have some water standing on my multiport handle. I purchased a new gasket for it. I was going to install this weekend. The last two days, it's been dry. I'm still going to install it.

I am going to call the pool guy to come out and check my system because of the sand. It has to be a leak. Where's a good place to buy pool sand (lowes?). I read that there is much debate on whether you should change sand or not. I might just add since I have this leak.

Thanks, Janet for all your help.

[aylad]

I know it sounds stupid, but if the gasket in the multiport handle is messed up, enough to have water leaking around it, it can cause sand to blow into the pool when you first turn on the pump. I can't explain why, but I know that it happens in my pool about once per season, and that's when I know it's time to replace the gasket. It stops after the gasket is replaced.

You can get pool sand at Lowe's, Home Depot, wherever--just make sure it's pool sand, because playground sand is not the same stuff.

Janet

[Txboynjgirl]

I have a Hayward s244t sand filter. The multiport valve is spo714T. I can not find the same gasket to replace. I can only find to replace the whole multiport. Do you even replace the gasket on this particular model? The one on the multiport looks to be good.

I have sand leaking into my pool and I thought this might be a first step before calling somebody.

[Txboynjgirl]

Well, Hayward company contacted me about the gasket question. Apparently, for that multiport model...the gasket is molded on and they do not have any replacement gaskets. Mine seems to be fine. I guess it's a lateral or sand pipe problem.

Should I go ahead and replace the sand or just save the few $$ and not worry about it?

[aylad]

Ordinarily I would say don't worry about replacing the sand, because it can go literally years before it needs replacing. However, in your case, since it's a pool you bought and don't really know the history of, and since you're going to have to remove all the sand to check for lateral cracking anyway, it might not be a bad idea to go ahead and replace it. Not only to make sure you don't have residual crud in it from the previous owners, but also to establish your own history with the pool and to make sure that you have the right amount of sand in the filter from the beginning.

Just my $0.02

Janet