Opened pool and problems... [Archive]

chumpy36

05-09-2011, 05:25 PM

I opened the pool this year a bit late and discovered a pretty nasty mess of algae underneath the cover. It was mostly brown and pretty disgusting..

I got the pump going and immediately put in a gal of polyquat algaecide. I waited a day then shocked the pool with 4 lbs of shock. Things immediately starting looking a bit better but I've stalled now. The water is pale green and very cloudy.

I can't seem to keep enough chlorine in it. I'll shock and after it has mixed I only get around 2ppm of Chlorine. PH was a little high at 7.8 but I used ph down to get it to around 7.2. Total Alkalinity is very high (260ppm). I've never had a reading this high before. Usually it is low at pool opening and I have to add baking soda.

So here's what I've tried...

I've shocked three times
I've used water clarifier in the hopes of getting the cloudiness out but two applications haven't seemed to help.

When you add the shock the water foams a lot but like I said, it generally does not hold chlorine very long.

Kind of at a loss... Do I need to lower the TA? If so, won't I lower the PH too much since it is about normal?

How do I get the water clearer? Is the cloudiness the carbon dioxide in the water from the High TA or is it algae?

I have a Taylor K-2006 on the way but right now I just have the more basic taylor tester.

Thanks

Jason

Watermom

05-09-2011, 10:18 PM

Hi and welcome to the forum!

A few questions.
-- What volume is the pool?
-- What type of pool?
-- What are you using to shock with?
-- How often are you adding chlorine?
-- What is your calcium hardness reading?
-- What is your CYA (stabilizer) reading?
-- Is there anything else you have added to the pool?
-- What kind of filter do you have?

The key to clearing algae from a pool is to sustain a high chlorine reading based on your CYA reading. The more consistent you are, the faster it will clear. Can't recommend how much chlorine to add without knowing some of those answers. Regarding your TA, don't worry about that right now. You can fix that after you get the pool clear. You should also be running your pump 24/7 right now while trying to clear this up.
Repost with the requested infor and somebody here can help you.

chumpy36

05-09-2011, 10:30 PM

I opened the pool this year a bit late and discovered a pretty nasty mess of algae underneath the cover. It was mostly brown and pretty disgusting..

I have a Taylor K-2006 on the way but right now I just have the more basic taylor tester.

30k gallons
Vinyl
Dichlor granulated shock in 1lb bags
I have been adding it each day in recommended dosage (3 lbs)
unknown (my k-2006 kit is on it's way)
Unknown
I have added clarifier
Sand filter

Thanks for the reply. I'll have the pool store test water tomorrow for the missing info...

Watermom

05-09-2011, 10:48 PM

OK. We especially need to know the CYA reading. Is that what you used for your source of chlorine last year as well? If so, it may be that your CYA level could be really high which in turn would require you to shock to a pretty high level in order to kill the algae. For a 30K pool, what does the dichlor package say that 3 lbs. will take the chlorine level up to?

chumpy36

05-09-2011, 11:21 PM

This is a new type of shock this year.. but last year's was dichlor as well. According to package. 1 lb of shock will raise the chlorine level 1 ppm per 10,000 gals - So am I understanding that right to say that 3lbs of shock is only going to raise my chlorine 1ppm in my 30k gal pool? Sounds like this is gonna be an expensive proposition..
J

PoolDoc

05-10-2011, 06:59 AM

The behavior of your pool is consistent with what happens when bacteria 'eat' your stabilizer over the winter, and leave ammonia and urea behind as their 'poop'. It will be hard to tell for sure, till your K2006 arrives, but for now, if you ACT as if that's the problem, it won't hurt.

When you go to the pool store . . . do NOT buy all the stuff they will tell you to get. Do NOT worry about alkalinity, total hardness, or especially, TDS. Don't even worry about 'fixing' your stabilizer (CYA) level yet.

1) Stop the dichlor for now. Make sure your pump is running 24/7
2) Stop all OTHER additions of chemicals, especially algicides, clarifiers, 'boosters', enzymes . . . and everything else a poolstore might want to sell you.
3) Get a Walmart (Lowes, etc.) cheap yellow & red drops kit -- orthotolidine, turns yellow when chlorine is present -- and test your pool.
4) Buy 20 gallons of 6% plain household bleach
(wear dark glasses and a trench coat, if you want to avoid being recognized by the cashier ;-).
5) Buy 6 boxes of 20 mule team borax.
6) Test your pool with the yellow / red kit. If the pH is below 7.6, add 2 boxes of borax SLOWLY to a skimmer with the pump running and the skimmer basket in place. (If below 7.2, add 4 boxes)
7) Add 10 gallons of bleach after 6pm this evening. Test after 15 minutes
8) Test your pool around 8 pm, and again tomorrow AM
9) Report results.

If algae have 'eaten' your stabilizer, it could take a LOT of gallons of bleach to convert the ammonia to nitrogen gas. BTW, a gallon of bleach and a pound of dichlor add about the same amount of chlorine to your pool. 10 gal of bleach will add about 20 ppm of chlorine. 3 gallons / lbs is only about 6 ppm -- NOT enough.

Do not get impatient -- it will take awhile. Getting impatient and adding more 'goop' will actually SLOW things down, not speed them up. The mistake (letting the pool go green) has already been made; do not make another by trying to clear things up really quickly.

As we say here, you'll need a lot of P.O.P. to get this fixed, and if you won't use POP, you end up using lots more time and $$$.

Ben

P.O.P. = "Pool Owner Patience"

chumpy36

05-10-2011, 09:09 AM

Ok, that all sounds reasonable... but if the problem is no stabilizer then shouldn't I add some? Or is it the fact we don't know for sure and adding at this point might be a bad idea?

I do have a taylor deluxe testing kit that has CL, PH, TA etc tests so I can test as you suggest... but a question... why do I want to raise the PH? Right now it's at 7.2 which I thought was where you wanted it?

I'm testing water today and I will do as you suggest above and will report back

thanks for the help

J

CarlD

05-10-2011, 10:15 AM

No, don't worry about CYA (stabilizer) just yet. You have to kill the algae and metabolize the ammonia, and stabilizer just slows it down.
The Borax will also add borates to your water which helps inhibit algae growth, too.

You WILL need stabilizer, but that's to keep the sun's UV from breaking down the chlorine too quickly, and for a few other issues. For now? Not yet. You cannot go wrong following Ben's advice.

Carl

chumpy36

05-10-2011, 02:38 PM

ok, got the water tested...

FAC 3.0
TAC 4.0
Calcium Hardness 190
CYA 25 (they say too low)
TA 200
PH 7.4
copper 0
iron 0
TDS 850
Phosphates 1000

One question about the Borax. It only came in one size box. It's fairly large. Is this the size box suggested above?

I'll do what is suggested and report back tomorrow.

Thanks!

J

PoolDoc

05-10-2011, 02:43 PM

20 Mule Team Borax, 4# 12 oz -- that's the only size I've ever seen.

Add chlorine this PM, test, and test again in the AM.

No rush, but you will be needing at least a gallon of muriatic acid. (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.) Pick it up when it's convenient. I'd recommend you get a heavy garbage bag, and put the acid inside THAT when you carry it in your car.

chumpy36

05-10-2011, 10:14 PM

I tested 15 minutes after application of the bleach and The chlorine reading was well off the scale of my test kit that ends at 5ppm.

At 10pm tonight, it had gone down to about 6ppm (a guess - maybe 7) based on the color.

Should I pour more bleach in? I have 10 more gallons. I've used 10

Thanks

Jason

PoolDoc

05-10-2011, 10:21 PM

Just wait till tomorrow.

Ben

chumpy36

05-10-2011, 10:22 PM

And should I smack it with all ten gallons I have left?

thanks

Watermom

05-11-2011, 09:24 PM

Do you have new numbers?

chumpy36

05-11-2011, 11:15 PM

Do you have new numbers?

I tested Chlorine this morning with my normal kit and came up with about 5ppm FAC. Combined is way off the scale. I wasn't sure what to do this morning and I didn't want the chlorine to go too low so I hit it with the rest of the 10 gals I had this morning.

Will test again in the morning when I get back to the house.

Thanks

PoolDoc

05-12-2011, 05:58 AM

chumpy36

05-12-2011, 08:41 AM

Just get into the "add bleach in the PM, test in the AM" routine, till your FC is nearly equal your TC (ie, your combined chlorine is less than 1 ppm, when your free chlorine is greater than 5 ppm).

Don't try to hurry things up with a 'super' dose of chlorine.

Don't start adding other stuff, unless the pH gets way off. You can probably test pH accurately in the evening BEFORE you add more chlorine -- but when the chlorine is more than 5 ppm, your pH test is not necessarily accurate.

Just take your time, and stay on course.

Good luck,

Ben

So practically speaking with my test kit (Taylor deluxe something or other) I need to test and get the FAC reading (This is a pinkish color) then add the 5 drops of the third chemical (the first test involves two chemicals) and look for only a change UP of only 1ppm as long as I'm above 5ppm?

Looks like I'm gonna be making alot of trips to walsmart. I've gone through 20 gals of bleach so far and there's only been a slight improvement but I'll keep at it.

Thanks for the help...

Watermom

05-12-2011, 04:41 PM

It may take a ton of bleach, but it WILL work. Every year, we have people who open to this situation and they feel like they are never going to quit having such a high chlorine demand, but the cycle eventually ends, and it will for you, too. Hang in there and keep us posted!

CarlD

05-12-2011, 04:47 PM

As Watermom puts it, you need to stick to the program. Chlorine WILL kill the algae. You just need enough of it.

Carl

chumpy36

05-13-2011, 10:24 AM

Ok, I'm getting some conflicting info from the test kits I have (still waiting on the K-2006)...

First one is a Taylor deluxe that does Free and combined chlorine (3 chemical test). It gives me a very elevated free chlorine reading first (off the chart that ends at 5) but when I add the third chemical to give combined chlorine I don't see much (any) change. I would think this means good news and that the difference between free chlorine and total is not much.

However, when I do another test I have (yellow drops one chemical) the chlorine comes up to a level of about 5ppm (I'm guessing this is just free chlorine). And when I use a test strip I get a total chlorine level of zero. The strip does not react at all.

So not really sure what to do at this point. I guess I'll have more info when the K-2006 gets here.

Thanks

JAson

PoolDoc

05-13-2011, 10:38 AM

Don't worry too much about your different test results.

=> DPD tablet testing is NOT reliable at all with the chlorine levels you are encountering. Don't use it.
=> Syringaldazine (test strips -- blue/purple color) are reliable, but not very precise.
=> OTO (yellow / orange / brown color) is reliable and slightly more informative than the strips: use that.

The ONLY tests you need worry about right now are your PM and AM tests. Until your post chlorine-dose PM test equals your AM test result -- keep chlorinating every evening. You don't even need to do more than that, once you receive the K2006, until your chlorine is stable overnight. OTO is cheap and gives you enough information to get you through this stage of the process.

Ben

chumpy36

05-13-2011, 10:53 AM

Thanks Ben...

So using the yellow test... I'm just looking for no change between pm and am? Basically just the same reading?

Thanks

JAson

PoolDoc

05-13-2011, 10:58 AM

You got it in one!

chumpy36

05-13-2011, 11:00 AM

Well UPS says my k-2006 will be here today so I'll do both tests and report the results. Thanks

chumpy36

05-13-2011, 08:20 PM

I got the k-2006 and here are the numbers...

Ph=7.4
FC=15ppm
CC= 1ppm
TA=210
CYA= 30

So if I understand things correctly, I can stop adding chlorine now right? CC is down to a negligible level and FC is up?

What's next? Pool is still pretty cloudy. Not sure how efficient my filter is. I have replaced the sand in it once but's it probably been 4-5 years. I have added DE to the filter as of last night. It didn't go from 18ppm (after DE) to about 24-25 and at that point the flow had been reduced greatly so I backwashed and added DE again tonight.

Anything else I need to do tonight? Chlorine?

Thanks!

aylad

05-13-2011, 09:33 PM

Keep the chlorine at or above the 15 ppm until the CC goes to 0 and/or you don't lose more than 1 ppm of chlorine overnight. Keep the filter running, and backwash/add more DE as needed. Patience!!!

Janet

chumpy36

05-14-2011, 10:08 AM

Free Chlorine dropped this morning to 3.5ppm and CC went up to 9ppm... Not exactly sure why but I will add 6 jugs of bleach to get it back up to 15ppm.... not sure why it flip flopped so drastically from my numbers of last night...

PoolDoc

05-14-2011, 11:01 AM

It can take chlorine awhile to react with some of the types of 'goo' found in pools. That's one reason for POP -- you need to wait awhile to see if you are *really* done, or of the 'goo' is just 'playing possum'!

Also, it's often true that the are big piles or layers of gunk on the pool walls or floor. Often, people get the pool almost all cleaned up (so they think) and then brush -- clear pools can be turned green instantly that way.

Bottom line: till your pool has been brushed and vacuumed AND held stable chlorine levels overnight for at least 2 days, you can't assume your done.

Ben

chumpy36

05-14-2011, 11:16 AM

Ok, I can be patient. Just trying to understand the process. So to be clear Stable chlorine levels with the k-2006 kit would mean that after getting a FC reading the combined Chlorine level is Zero? So a testing would look like this:

At night I test and get a hypothetical FC level of 5ppm and a hypothetical CC reading of 0 and then I test again in the morning and I get the same results? That would be considered "stable"?

I am brushing the pool but I havent' done much vacuuming. Do you suggest I do that now?

Pool water looks marginally clearer today btw

Thanks for all the help...

PoolDoc

05-14-2011, 11:27 AM

I'm gonna disagree with WaterMom a bit here.

As long as your chlorine is high AND substantially higher than your CC levels, don't worry about the CC levels -- they will go down. Also, the CC test sometimes shows stuff it really shouldn't, so don't pay to much attention to fine differences.

From my point of view, your chlorine is "stable", when it doesn't change from PM to AM, two days in a row AND when the FC is more than 5x the CC.

Regarding brushing, if you've brushed the WHOLE pool carefully, that's what's needed. But if you have any suspicion of there being piles of stuff on the floor, by all means vacuum it up.

Basically, if
+ your filter is working, and
+ you keep your pH between 7 and 8, and
+ you do NOT add pool store goop, and
+ you keep filtering, chlorinating, and cleaning, then
. . . you will get your pool clean, about as fast as anyone can, without replacing the water or bringing a battery of pumps and DE filters.

Ben

Watermom

05-14-2011, 01:58 PM

I'm gonna disagree with WaterMom a bit here.
Ben

Uhhhh.... not me this time. I think you meant Aylad. :p

chumpy36

05-14-2011, 02:04 PM

Ok, I'm getting a bit confused by the readings I'm getting from the k-2006 kit. This morning the FC level was 3.5ppm and the CC was 9ppm. I used the pool calculator here: http://www.thepoolcalculator.com/ to determine that if I wanted to raise the chlorine from 3.5 to 15ppm I need 4 jugs (182oz) chlorine to raise to 15ppm. I actually made a couple mistake with the concentration and size of my bottles and put in 6 jugs of the bleach. In any case. I just tested here and the FC is only 5ppm and the CC has gone up to 13ppm. I am totally confused. I would have thought the addition of that much chlorine would have upped the FC ALOT and the CC would have come down? I do believe I'm doing the test correctly... but lemme check...

I'm filling the large vial to the ten ml mark with the water to be tested. I add a heaping scoop of the 870 powder and swirl until the water turns pink. I also swirled until I saw that all the bits of the powder were dissolved. I then added 871 reagent dropwise until the sample turned clear. Then added the other reagent (r003 I think?) 5 drops until pink again then added 870 again dropwise until I got clear water again. For FC I got 10 drops for CC I got 26 drops until clear. 10x.5 = 5ppm for FC and 26x.5 = 13 ppm for CC. Correct?

Do I need to add even more chlorine today or wait until tonight? It's mostly cloudy here today...

Thanks

J

CarlD

05-14-2011, 06:19 PM

"871" Brown bottle? Are you sure you added R-0003? Powder is 0870. testing reagent for FC is 0871. Did you add the R-0003 to the SAME sample that just went clear from the 0871? (that's the correct way) Or did you try to test CC with a new water sample (incorrect)
IF you did all that correctly, something's a bit odd. However, if you didn't follow the steps above then it would be user error. So I want to rule out user error first.

Carl

chumpy36

05-14-2011, 06:49 PM

Yes, Sorry. I see a typo in the last bit. But to confirm. I added powder (870 ) til pink then 871(brown bottle) until clear then added r003 (clear bottle) to the same sample until it was pink again then 871 (brown bottle) until it was clear again.

I just did that test again and got 7ppm FC and 9ppm CC.

Since I don't think it hurts to have too much chlorine at this point I just added 3 more 182oz jugs (slightly more than the calculator called for to get to 15ppm) of bleach, this time through the skimmer in the hopes it would spread more? But I'm not sure that would make much of a difference.

I brushed the whole pool carefully again today and did see some debris kicked up so I put the polaris in the pool for a short time (didn't know what the high chlorine would do to it) and got a couple bags of debris up. Last go round the bag was mostly empty so I'm pretty sure there are no algae piles lying around.

I'll test again before I go out to dinner in 30 minutes or so and see what the FC chlorine is.

FYI, when I applied the bleach this time, there was a fair amount of foaming. This has happened sometimes and not others. I haven't been able to pinpoint why it foams sometimes and not others.

Hope this helps...

Jason

chumpy36

05-14-2011, 09:37 PM

I did another test 2 hours after the application of the 3 jugs of bleach. This seems even weirder. FC is 7 and CC is 14. This is pretty much exactly opposite of what I would have thought would have happened?

Could the test kit chemicals be bad or what?

Confused.

Thanks

CarlD

05-15-2011, 08:49 AM

"then added r003 (clear bottle) to the same sample until it was pink again"

You are only supposed to add 5 drops, not till it gets pink again. Usually, when I add 5 drops, it's not at all pink.

If that's what's happening it can explain a lot.

Carl

chumpy36

05-15-2011, 09:11 AM

That's not what's happening. I was just trying to be brief. I only used 5 drops of the r-003.

Thanks

chumpy36

05-15-2011, 10:33 AM

Ok, I just did a chlorine test again and got wildly different results from last night but they seem to be more in line with what I would expect though.

Free Chlorine was 22ppm
Combined Chlorine was Zero meaning it did not change to pink when I added the 5 drops of r-0013.

I can't explain the differences in the test results. I took the sample from the same place, in the same way. The only thing I can think is that the Chlorine was not dispersed well? But I don't see how that would be a problem, the pump is functioning fine and the return output is nice and strong.

But based on this latest test what should I do? Do I let the Chlorine fall now to maintenance levels? Or keep shock level?

Flummoxed.

Jason

CarlD

05-15-2011, 04:01 PM

Now those chlorine numbers look better!

Is your water still green? What was your CYA level again?
If CYA is over 90 and the water isn't clear you want to keep your FC that high. And if CYA is over 100, you'll want to increase FC to 25.

When everything bad is dead you can let FC drop.

Carl

chumpy36

05-15-2011, 04:19 PM

Hi Carl,

Water has a greenish cast but I don't think that's do to active chlorine but maybe how the dead algae makes it look. The water is actually greyish... But you can judge for yourself.

https://picasaweb.google.com/115920927310467328262/May152011?authkey=Gv1sRgCNTUtKfZ9qrIJg&feat=directlink

Cya was 30ppm as of a couple days ago.

Just not sure if everything's dead. I suspect so but I dunno.

Watermom

05-15-2011, 05:01 PM

PoolDoc

05-15-2011, 06:21 PM

chumpy36

05-15-2011, 06:37 PM

Run tests again this evening when the sun is off the pool and post numbers again. Dead algae will look grayish. Are you running the pump 24/7? Is your filter pressure rising? Did you add more DE? Is the water any better in the past few days?

Just tested...

FC 11ppm
CC 5.5 ppm

Pump is going 24/7
Filter pressure is rising and yes I'm using DE but not more than the amount I determined to be the correct amount.

Hit it again? Get it up to 15 again?

Thanks

chumpy36

05-15-2011, 06:38 PM

A couple of comments:

I've often seen pools look like that when the algae was dead / dying.
You need to be VERY careful to double rinse your chlorine tube after testing for CC! Any carry-over of R-003 will cause your FC test to include some or all CC.
High CC and low FC after adding chlorine are typical of pools with lots of ammonia.

Ben

Ben,

That's helpful. I'll make sure I rinse well. Problem is now that with all these weird tests and such I'm running out of R-0871. I have some on order but it won't be here for a bit.

Thanks!

cyclingbro

05-15-2011, 06:44 PM

aylad

05-16-2011, 01:13 AM

I am not an expert, but liquid chlorine may help. After I started heating the pool I had chlorine loss and a cloudy algae build up. The liquid chlorine cleared it in minutes and returned it to normal levels. I used 2 gallons in a 25k pool. I did not start off as bad as your pool was though. Good luck.

C

just to clarify, this poster is using liquid chlorine........aka bleach. Both are sodium hypochlorite--the bleach is 6% strength, and the other is 12%. The 12% version is not available in all states.

Janet

chumpy36

05-17-2011, 09:04 AM

ok, the last two days of testing seem to indicate the chlorine levels have stabilized a bit. I think.

Two nights ago, the readings were

FC 11ppm
CC 5.5 ppm

I added bleach in the amount the pool calc said would get me to 15 but either my volume is off or I made a mistake in the form. The next evening (last night) the readings were:

FC 19ppm
CC 0

This morning I tested again and it was:

FC 15ppm
CC 1

Pool is still very cloudy. Doesn't seem to be improving much. Pump pressure does rise. I am using DE in addition to the sand. I'm wondering if at this point the filter needs the sand replaced or maybe is channelled. The pool sand was replaced 6 years ago.

Any ideas about what to do now?

Thanks

Watermom

05-17-2011, 06:35 PM

You don't need to replace the sand. I think I am on my 10th season with the same sand. Poconos and CarlD also have the same sand that they have used for at least that long. Not sure about Aylad. At any rate, I think your sand is probably fine.

Can you post a total set of your other numbers? This thread is getting pretty long. I'm sure you gave us all the numbers before, but we are now on the second page of this thread and it is difficult to have to look back so far. Give us current alk, cya, calcium hardness and pH again please.

At this point, are you adding anything other than bleach? Are you running your pump 24/7?

Take a look at this link:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/100-reasons-for-cloudy-swimming-pool-water.html