Newbie question - would we be better off to drain and start over?

[RockheadedMama]

We have a 28,000 gallon, in-ground, gunite pool, with cartridge filtration at the house we rent. We have spent more than $300 in the last 15 days and are worse off than when we started. We have had our water tested at the pool place daily. Today our test results are: FC 2.0; TC 2.0; CC 0.0; pH 7.4; alkalinity 100 ppm; cyanuric acid 150 ppm; total dissolved solids are 1100 ppm.

When we started we had green algae. We took in a water sample every day and followed, to the letter, all the recommendations of the pool guy at 2 different pool companies. At about day 3, one of the recommendations was to use floc. We were told to vacuum the stuff off the bottom of the pool the next morning -- which we did. We did not know we were supposed to "vacuum to waste". Before we started to vacuum, the water was clear on top with fluffy dark green stuff on the last 2" of the bottom. After we vacuumed, we had lots of tiny particles in the water. We took another water sample to the pool people and they said to add soda ash, along with shocking the pool. After adding the soda ash, the particles became lighter green, but are still there. Since then, we have used several different brands of clarifers, all according to directions. We have seen only the slightest bit of change. Every day, at least twice a day, we change the filter out and thoroughly clean it, and we vacuum every day. Today, we have finally, for the first time since using the floc, turned off the pool pump and are trying to see if these superfine particles will settle to the bottom or not. (We have also used double socks on the sump basket except of course, when vacuuming.) The filter does catch green, just not enough to make any real difference. The socks also catch enough to color the socks, but not enough to make a difference in the water.) The pool is still extremely cloudy. The above listings are our chems for today. I just want to be able to use the pool. Surely 2 weeks is too long for this problem not to be solved. Can anyone tell us what to do to be able to use the pool? (My husband finally understands he has to keep the chlorine tablets in the little floating thing - so - if we can get it back to normal, we don't think we'll have any more problems.) I'm going to try to post pics in the pic gallery. Don't know if I have permission to do that.

[Watermom]

First --- welcome to the forum!

Next ---- stay out of that pool store! They are compounding your problems by having you add all these things. With a CYA of 150 (assuming that is even right since most tests can't differentiate past 100), you don't have anywhere near enough chlorine in your pool. Higher CYA requires higher chlorine. (Take a look at the Best Guess Chart linked in my signature below.) Tell hubby not to put any more tabs in your floater. Those tabs are trichlor and are adding more and more CYA and yours is already WAY too high!

You have two choices.
1. Run higher than normal chlorine levels per the Best Guess chart.
2. Do a partial drain and refill and try to lower that CYA level to something more manageable. Do NOT totally drain your pool however as it can pop out of the ground, especially if you live someplace with a high water table. You can probably safely drain 1/2 to 2/3 of your water. Sometimes if the CYA is really high, it takes a couple of partial drains and refills to get the CYA level under control. This is a large volume pool. You may not want to have that expense of more water. Your call. (If it were my pool, I would do the partial drain and refill.)

Regardless of which option you choose, no more trichlor pucks, nor dichlor powder for this pool. Use regular bleach or liquid chlorine for your pool. Depending on what your calcium hardness reading is (not listed above), cal-hypo may be an option.

Get a good test kit so you don't have to depend on a pool store. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C. If you order it from Amazon through the link in my signature line, the Pool Forum makes a little money.

Also, read on our sister site --- Pool Solutions. (Again, link is below.)

Let us know which option you want to do and then somebody here can help you get this pool under control!

[PoolDoc]

Thanks, Watermom.

Rockheaded, you asked, "Surely 2 weeks is too long for this problem not to be solved?"

The answer is, actually, no, 2 weeks & $300 on a 30,000 gallon pool is about right for people to get frustrated enough to come here and follow the BBB Method. We even have a name for what's happened to you (coined by CarlD, like "BBB Method" and many of our other special terms): "You've been Pool-Stored!". We can tell you how to fix it. It won't be too hard or expensive, but also it won't be very quick, unless your filter is in really good condition and sized better than average. But, our methods will sound really weird if you've spent much time drinking the Koolade at pool stores.

Regardless, you're going to need a lot of (I coined this one ;-) P.O.P., or "Pool Owner Patience". The reason is your pool store "goo" has actually made things worse. In particular, in overdoses like yours, the floc and all the clarifiers tend to make stuff float around and become harder to filter, unless you use it -just--exactly--the--right--way-. Using multiple doses of multiple clarifiers is not the right way.

Anyhow, besides POP, here's what you need:

1. Remind yourself daily: "If the pool store wins, I lose. If I win, the pool store loses." $300 is more than you would have spent on the whole pool season, using the BBB method.

2. Unless you plan to do a 100% drain and refill, you must get a K2006 or another DPD-FAS test kit. (I think LaMotte has one finally). With your stabilizer levels, you are going to need to run chlorine levels higher than other kits can measure. (This is not bad: with high stabilizer and high chlorine, you'll be able to add chlorine just 1x or 2x per week, and have it last. And, your overall chlorine costs will go down. Personally, I'd try to fix it rather than drain and refill -- but that's your call. See #8 below for a caution about draining.)

3. Whether you drain or not, do NOT take any more pool store chemical advice. (See #1 above!).

4. Meanwhile, add 10 gallons of plain unscented 6% (check the label!!) chlorine bleach to your pool in the evening -- this evening if you can. If you go to Walmart, pick up some teststrips or an OTO kit (drops turn yellow) to use till you get your K2006. Repeat nightly, till you can hold a 10+ppm level through the day. High chlorine levels will kill the algae, and in many cases, may help destroy the excess clarifier. Ignore the strange looks from the cashier when you check out with 30 bottles of bleach and 5 boxes of borax. (And, as Watermom noted, no more trichlor / dichlor / stabilizer!)

5. You can also buy and add 2 boxes of borax, and add them SLOWLY to your skimmer with the pump running -- do NOT let the skimmer get choked. (Borax can 'freeze' and will take forever to dissolve if it does.)

6. Do go back to the pool store that 'owes' you the most, and beg or buy a small amount of DE filter powder -- a coffee can full is enough. Go home, and with the filter running, pour it into a skimmer (it won't choke). Then, go the the pool return nearest the pump, and watch. If you see a white cloud (DE powder) come back into the pool, your filter needs work. If not, you are probably OK. (If the DE stays in the filter, it will help catch all the stuff that's stuck in your pool because of the clarifier overdoses. But, your filter will stop up faster.)

7. Be patient. Gullibility (not your fault -- pool chemical companies provide consumers AND dealers a lot of misinformation) and impatience build pool store 'goop' sales. NO MORE GOOP! Do not try to 'fix' your stabilizer (unless you drain and refill), your calcium, your alkalinity or your pool ANYTHING except your chlorine and pH levels.

8. If this sounds like too much work and too slow, you can drain and refill UNLESS the ground around your pool is wet. In wet ground, gunite pools can float like a boat, right out of the ground! If you are in the tornado zone, and have just received a bunch of rain, do NOT drain unless your pool is on the top of a hill. If you do drain, check your filter first, and fix it if needed BEFORE you drain.

9. Let us know how it goes.

Ben

PS. I inadvertently deleted your email address from your user account, when I was checking it, b4 upgrading it. I had to put a dummy address back in, but you'll need to replace it. Once I get the mail-side of the new forum software working, your user account will get kicked into the "no valid email" group automagically, the first time you subscribe to a thread, and the email bounces.

[CarlD]

Let me add a few things to Ben's advice:
1) If you have to use strips, the best are by Hach and LaMotte, the ones that measure about 6 things: TC (total Chlorine), FC (Free Chlorine), pH, CH (Calcium Hardness), T/A (total alkalinity), and CYA/Stabilizer. The TC is useless but the FC works fairly well and goes to 10ppm. The pH is tough to read and a cheapo OTO kit works better for pH. CH, T/A and CYA are very tough to read so don't rely on them too much, but they will give you a fair idea. FC is the best and easiest to read, especially if it's deep purple (Means your FC is 10 or above).

2) With the DE I'd like Ben to look again...it's a cartridge filter and I'm under the impression that DE works in DE and sand filters, but not carts. Ben will correct me if I'm wrong. (Several of us use a little DE in our sand filters to improve filtration, not a lot, but between 1/3 and 1 cup, depending on the water pressure).

[RockheadedMama]

Thank Goodness! I couldn't find my thread until just now! I'm so happy! Doing a happy dance!

Thank you thank you thank you for your responses and help.

Okay, by great coincidence - on Sunday evening we put in 10 1-gallon containers of 6% Clorox (unscented). (DH says the generic at the store didn't say what %, so he bought the unscented Clorox. I told him he did good. ;o) and 1/2 cup of already dissolved (in tap water) Borax. I use Borax in everything here (clothes washing, dish washing, toilets, etc.) as the water is so hard (San Antonio, TX - and - we are in severe drought.) Then, Monday night we put in 11 @ 1.42-gallons of Clorox and, another 1/2 cup of Borax. (I was scared of putting in too much - and something here on the forum said to increase it gradually...) The water has improved by at least 30%. We can actually barely make out the outlines of the vacuum head when vacuuming!

Today, my DH finally located a Taylor kit. I cannot find the kit number on it anywhere. It says on the front "Complete Poolcare DPD Test Kit -- Free & Total Chlorine or Bromine, pH, Acid & Base Demand, Total Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness, Cyanuric Acid. But, the little plastic tester thingy shows the chlorine only up to 5. But, then again, Dr. Bartel, my bio-chem prof for my non-science major requirement class, said that while I have a great mind, it really isn't structured for the sciences. :( So, I can't figure out how to get a reading of 30. Taylor is already closed until tomorrow morning. Meanwhile, the scary white noise in my head is deafening.

(btw, I said cart filter - it has pleated paper like material, so I assume it is a cart filter.) My DH brought home a big bag of the powder to put on the filter, but I was afraid it would make it too stiff or hard to get out this super fine stuff. Our pressure is 28#

DH is off to the store to get another 10 gallons of Clorox and 2 boxes of Borax and we'll put that in. He is trying to make it to the pool store for the DE powder too. Then, hopefully, I will learn how to read the test results.

[CarlD]

OK, if it's a cylinder of paper, like the inside of an oil filter, it's a cartridge. If it look like overlapping fan blades, it's a DE filter. And if it's full of sand it's either really dirty or it's a sand filter!

You can't read an FC of over 5 with a DPD test kit. What we suggest is an FAS-DPD test kit, and FAS-DPD is not the same thing at all as a DPD test kit. If you have LOTS of chlorine, your DPD may read "zero" because it's actually bleached out! The other tests in the kit should be fine. You can order just the FAS-DPD test from Taylor if you want.

Carl

[RockheadedMama]

Thanks for the quick reply. DH will take this $75 test kit back then. If they don't have a FAS-DPD kit, then I will order it from Amazon or where ever it is ya'll get a little something on it. (I was just trying to get the pool ready for Mother's Day and a visit from grandkids #4, #5 and #6 but at this point will just be glad to have the pool again someday!)

[Watermom]

The kit we recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C and can be ordered through the link in my signature line below.

[RockheadedMama]

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. The pool guy at Leslie said I need to "unlock" my chlorine, I need to put some product they sell in, I think he said, "Fresh & Clear". We have put 10 gallons of Clorox in every evening, right before dark, since Sunday evening. We put in 1/2 cup of Borax on Sunday and Monday nights, then 2 boxes on Tuesday night and one box last night. The pool guy said my water tests are: FAC 0, TAC 0 CH 330, CYA 98, TA 100, pH 7.7, TDS 1900, Pho 0. The pool guy didn't use the computer to test the water, he did it with chemical drops and I'm thinking if they don't sell the kit that will measure the higher limits of chlorine, maybe my chlorine level is not really 0? Should I drain 1/2 the pool? I'm totally confused. BTW, the pool water looks great - the color is a beautiful glassy blue but, the bottom 1 foot to 18" is white cloudy with the upper levels of water being less cloudy. Overall, the water looks very nice except for the cloudiness.

[Watermom]

RH Mama,
Did you take our advice and order the Taylor K-2006 or the 2006C? We have given you some pretty specific advice throughout this thread. You really have to make a decision if you want to take our advice or the pool store's advice. It really isn't going to work well to try and do both. If you decide that you want us to help you get this cleared up, stay out of the pool store and don't add anything else that they are trying to sell you. Usually adding more stuff just causes more problems.

We are trying to help. If you want us to be able to help you get this cleared up, go back and reread this entire thread and pay close attention to the advice that has been given. Do exactly what has been suggested, get a good kit so you don't have to depend on the pool store and you will see improvement. Let us know what you decide.

Thanks.

[PoolDoc]

Do NOT get "pool-stored"! Chlorine lock is a pool biz marketing myth (though some pool guys actually believe it).

Buy a cheap OTO (turns yellow) drops kit. If your chlorine is high, it will turn ORANGE (ok) or maybe brown (not so ok). Order the DPD-FAS.

Carl, RH-mom => you can use DE to TEST any filter: if you add a small amount of DE (coffee can) to your skimmer (pump ON) and shortly after see cloudiness from your pool return . . . your filter has problems REGARDLESS of what type it is.

RH-mom => for your pool (~30,000 gallons) ONE WHOLE BOX of borax is a small amount. Add slowly to the skimmer, but don't add just a cup.

Next steps:
1. Get the OTO kit so you can get some idea whether your chlorine is high or low.
2. If it's low, keep dosing in the PM, till you can hold high levels overnight.
3. If it's high, and stays high overnight, just maintain "orange". (If it's "brown", add 2 quarts of Baquacil or Softswim shock -- hydrogen peroxide, 31% => GLOVES & GLASSES without fail!)
3. Use a SMALL amount of DE to TEST your filter. (If you have to get a large bag, you can use it later to 'help' your filter with the cloudiness.
4. Get the FAS-DPD kit from the Amazon link -- but get an OTO kit locally ASAP.

Ben

[RockheadedMama]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I've thought I HAVE been following your advice. (Please refer to my previous reply in which I outlined exactly what we have put in the pool since Sunday night.) Perhaps I am not understanding something. Is there something ELSE I am supposed to do? The Taylor kits are not available here in San Antonio. I tried to order through Amazon, but the reviewers stated that the kit is actually a 2005 kit, so I played it safe and ordered straight from Taylor. However, I did not drain the pool any, as you suggested Watermom. Perhaps that is the advice you feel I should follow that I did not do? If not, what? I did order the Taylor 2006 test kit, but it will be almost a week until it arrives as it is coming from Maryland to south Texas. I did say the pool guy suggested the Fresh and Clear to "eat up" the large amount of solids. I did NOT say that I purchased any or that I have used any. Where do you get that I am trying "both" methods? Please explain specifically what it is you think I need to "decide". Or, are you just upset that I went to the pool store to get my water tested while I am waiting for the Taylor 2006 to arrive?

[RockheadedMama]

I should have said we are using the bio-degradable substitute for DE - Fiber Clear - we sprinkle it in until the pressure goes up 1# and then we stop putting it in. It has helped a little. None comes out of the outlet valve. (Although, when my DH hooked up to vacuum this evening, a small amount started shooting out of the outlet valve next to the skimmer - we hadn't put any in since this morning when we changed out the filter - and - my DH checked the filter and it was full, so, we changed it out.) I was unsure as to whether to continue using it, so I didn't add any tonight, but certainly can if I should.

I'll go and try to find the OTO kit tomorrow (DH said Walmart told him there didn't have any OTO test kits - might just have been a kid that didn't know what he was talking about) and start testing that way. The Taylor 2006 is ordered; but it will be a while until it gets here.

I'll put in another box of Borax then tonight as well. I have a 4#12 oz box I think. (I didn't know how much to put in before I located the thread - that's why I only used 1/2 cup. Since then, I've added boxes.)

The pool guy said my TDS was way too high. I know that Watermom said it was too and she suggested I drain 1/2 the pool. I'm just wondering if that is why my pool is still cloudy. I would prefer to "fix" it though rather than drain it.

Today I did have to brush orange brown patches off the sides a bit. They came off quite easily with the brush. Maybe, the cloudiness will go away when the chlorine is right?

Also, my pH is 7.7 - is that too low? Should I add 2 boxes of Borax every time I put in the 10 gallons of Clorox? (I did try to find the liquid chlorine, but, I can't find anyone who sells it here in SA.)

[PoolDoc]

Hi RH-Mom;

I took out some stuff that maybe wasn't steering this in the right direction.

Anyhow, the reason for the DE was not to *help* your filter, but to *test* it, and see if it works. Fiber Clear might *help*, but I don't think it will *test* your filter the same way. My concern is that if your filter is not working, everything else may not be of much value. You can't replace effective filtration with anything except . . . effective filtration. Please remember, if you go back to the pool store that effective filtration does NOT come in a quart bottle, whether it says clarifier or enzyme or flocculant or "Dr Peter Pools Miraculous Swimming Pool Treatment Elixir". (Of course, if it was a really old-time elixir 'for medicinal use only' it might make you FEEL much better about your cloudy pool.)

Sorry about the K2006 -- I followed the link out, and the Amato Industries shipped K2006 is no longer available. Amazon has switched in somebody else's K2006/K2005 but the pic is a K2005, so you did the right thing by ordering from Taylor.

You also need to understand a bit about our approach here.

Of necessity, it's not the same as it would be, if I came to your pool. If I did, I'd be able to snoop in your garbage can to find out what you'd been using, and I'd be able to check out your pump, filter and equipment directly. I'd test the water myself, and wouldn't have to depend on your pool store, or on your having to use an unfamiliar test kit. Most likely, if I could actually come to your pool, we could either clear it up faster OR get to the real issue right away (maybe, a new filter is needed).

We can't do any of those things. So in situations like yours, we have to go with a second best approach, which works like this:

1. Get you (or anyone else who comes here) to stop putting in mystery stuff that has effects no one, especially not your pool store guy, understands.
2. Make sure the basics are covered: chlorine, filtration, pH.
3. Get you (or whomever) to leave the things that aren't essential (alkalinity, calcium, TDS) alone.
4. Get you (or whomever) to leave things that come 2nd (like CYA) alone till we take care of 1st things (chlorine, filtration, pH).

The huge obstacle we face is the desire pool owners have to 'fix that ugly pool NOW'. That's an obstacle for us, because the best case pace for fixing your pool is going to be slower than you (or almost anyone else) like. So, we have to try to refocus pool owners on the basics, and slow them down.

I even coined a term for this years ago, when I said that P.O.P. was a key ingredient in solving situations like yours. Of course P.O.P = Pool Owner Patience. But, when we say we love POP, you have to understand that pool stores hate it! When you lack "POP", you are willing to shell our $$$'s buying "Pool filter in a bottle" or "Super Duper Clarifier Enzyme Magnet Mineralizer Goop". The profit margin on those items is 2x - 4x what it is on basic pool chemicals, which means pool stores just LOVE impatient pool owners.

So, we try to keep you (you all) out of pool stores, because we know what's going to happen to you if you go into one while you are frustrated: it's like sending a hungry man to the grocery store!

Another issue we face is trying to be simple and specific enough to avoid "close enough" substitutions that aren't "close enough". Your non-DE DE is an example. Quite reasonably, you thought that DE substitute would stand in for the DE I asked you to use. And, if my goal had been just to improve filter function, you'd have been right. Unfortunately, that wasn't my goal. But, because the non-DE DE may have 'stuck' in any holes in your filter, my attempt to TEST your filter with DE is now uncertain. If you add DE, and it comes back into the pool, we know you have filter problems. But if it doesn't come back, we don't know if that's because the filter is OK, or because the non-DE DE is catching it.

So where we end up is asking people to do just what we say, with exactly what we say, and only what we say. Of course, even we don't always agree completely. Watermom tends to suggest draining pools a bit more often than I would. I've seen floated liners and pools that have come out of the ground . . . so it always scares me a bit to suggest draining a pool.

Still, a lot of times this ends up working out really well. Occasionally it doesn't. It look like we may be moving into one of the cases where it "doesn't". This isn't your fault, and I don't think it's ours either. It's just life.

But, one of the things Watermom said is still sorta true. We can't help you, if you don't put "all your eggs in one basket". Our advice isn't compatible with pool store advice.

Something else you need to know. We can NOT help you clear up the pool as quickly as you want. And the fact that you want it cleared up so badly actually makes it likely we can't help you clear it up as quickly as we could with someone else who was a little less concerned. There are times when wanting stuff really really badly helps. But this isn't one of them.

We're in a situation here, where we're almost going to have to start over from scratch.
+ Your filter needs to be cleaned and then DE tested.
+ We need to know whether your algae is dead, or not.
+ We need to know whether your chlorine is high or not.
+ We need to know if you are putting anything in your pool that's almost what we said (like DE) but not exactly (like DE substitute).
+ We need to know if you can set aside all the things the pool store is telling you to worry about (TDS, alkalinity, etc.) and focus on JUST chlorine, filtration, & pH.

The Pool Forum has helped a lot of people, but we can't help everyone and that's OK, too.

Best wishes,

Ben

[CarlD]

RH Mom:

I guess what Ben's saying is ultimately your pool is your responsibility. There's very few problems that ONE of us hasn't seen before.

Right now it looks like you have 3 fundamental problems:
1. Is your filter working properly and, if not, can it be fixed or must it be replaced?
2. Do you have enough chlorine in your water to kill the algae?
3. Can you get the dead algae out once it's killed?

Everything else is (forgive me) a user-created problem. The pool store happily sold you stuff. You put it in. It got worse.

Draining is difficult and dangerous. The ONLY safe way to do a complete water replacement is Pocono's sheet plastic method. You cover the pool with a giant sheet of plastic. Put NEW water on top of the plastic while you drain the old water out from under it. When the plastic sheet hits the bottom of the pool, the water is replaced. This prevents liners and solid pools from floating out.