Replacing concrete deck

[maherba]

We've decided to take the plunge (no pun intended) and replace the concrete deck on our eight-year-old pool. It heaved last year and cracked around the shallow end. We're planning to replace it with stamped concrete.

Here's my dilemma: the first company that quoted said that the coping may get damaged and need to be replaced (it's currently in good condition) at a cost of $1,200 to $1,300. They said it happens in about 1/3 of the jobs they do.

The second company, which hasn't even come out to see the pool yet, said that the coping will definitely have to be replaced -- and probably the liner, too! The existing liner is a premium liner. It was reset last year because it had wrinkled and was judged at that time to be in excellent condition.

I think it may not be a coincidence that the second company also installs and rehabs pools, while the first one just does concrete work, but is a sub-contractor to some pool companies so has experience in this area.

My question is -- what is your experience with deck replacements? Do they often require coping and/or liner replacement? Is this second company just trying to increase the cost of the job?

[maherba]

Does anyone have any input? I need to make a decision soon and I know there are experts on here! Please?

[PoolDoc]

There are experts here, in pool chemistry, in pump & filter operation, and so on.

Pool deck repairs in YOUR area? Not so much.

Your problem is that such repairs tend to be somewhat local in nature. Those who've done such repairs aren't sure what they don't know about your pool, but they're sure it's a lot, and they know enough to know that such things matter. As a result, the more knowledgeable they are, the more reluctant they'll be to say much. You'd have to provide specific location information AND photos (post them on Picasa, Photobucket, or some such, and link to them), before someone knowledgeable might be willing to speak up.

You could post a poolspaforum.com, which is much more 'pool industry friendly' than PoolForum (even though I'm a 20+ year pool industry professional). The problem you have to watch out for is that many in the pool industry are much more interested in selling their product than in solving your problem, and thus won't hesitate to tell you that THEIR product will fix you right up, regardless of whether their product is a good fit or not.

Good luck!

Ben

[maherba]

Okay, thanks, PoolDoc. Here's a bit information: I'm just north of Toronto, Canada, so a cold zone. The deck heaved over the winter a couple of years ago -- we think it was because of an undetected hole in the liner that led to water getting into the ground. The steps cracked, too, and were repaired last year. The deck has cracked in several places and pieces of the concrete have popped out. I'm attaching a photo of one of the cracks that I took last spring.

[PoolDoc]

I can't tell anything from your photos, but I grabbed them so others can look:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6YF19lmruGU/T2fUaA9KdJI/AAAAAAAABwg/OH9q5KMNG7A/s800/IMG00234.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iUK14MxJ-Bs/T2fUajr7xrI/AAAAAAAABw0/hpVWQTeh3y8/s800/IMG00236.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-m_Yo8XtU0Ao/T2fUaG_IkCI/AAAAAAAABwc/F-Ygc9EasGM/s640/IMG00233.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JIA2LjywJEo/T2fUaIcCtRI/AAAAAAAABwk/lX6ek9GKUoo/s640/IMG00231.jpg

Otherwise, I don't have any experience at all in areas subject to that sort of frost heave, so I'm going to stay out of this one.

Ben

[maherba]

The circles in the other photos are where the steps cracked.

[waste]

Welcome to the Forum!

Those photos were a year ago?

Can you post more recent photos?

How old is the pool?


I've got a "snap" judgment from those pics, but don't want to steer you the wrong way, please clarify, for me, and I'll give you my best advice:)

[maherba]

Hi, Waste - Yes, they're from a year ago but nothing much has happened since then. The pool was emptied, a hole in the liner near the steps was plugged and the stairs were repaired by a pro. But there are several cracks in the cement deck all around the shallow end and where the cracks meet the expansion joints, pieces have popped out.

The pool is seven or eight years old -- it was installed by the previous owners and has been nothing but trouble. We have replaced the salt system and the winter cover, had the steps repaired (would have cost $6,500 to replace them), had the liner re-set and now we have to replace the deck. We have it professionally opened and closed and monitor the chemicals carefully.

[waste]

I'm glad to hear you got the steps repaired, I had feared telling you that they need fixing/ replacing.

The real issue here is the possibility of the coping being wrecked when they bust out the old deck. I'm thinking, why risk it? If it's only the area around the steps (within the control/ expansion cuts) that is an issue, they should be able to take out that section without having to risk the coping. Doing just the affected area will save you $ and probably wouldn't look too bad (it'll just be an 'accent' around the steps). You might not be able to do stamped concrete there, but talk to the first company about the feasibility of just doing the affected area. Doing only 1 section of deck will never look the same as the rest of the deck but, if you purposely make it look different (in color or finish) it becomes the 'pool entry area' and might be acceptable.

Whichever way you go, once the deck is out from around the stairs dig out under them and put in some support for the top step! (I can give you ideas on this if you need) Also, see what can be done about improving the drainage under that section of deck, so it doesn't heave again.

I'll be here if you have any questions about what I've said:)

[maherba]

Thanks, waste, I have the first guy coming again tomorrow to talk further. I'd really like to get the whole thing done once and for all. I just know I'm not going to like the mismatched look. At first, I thought there might be something they could do to stain the whole thing to match, but they said it doesn't work and that we wouldn't be happy with the result. The first company did say that there's a chance of the coping breaking, but they didn't jump to "you'll need a new liner, too". I just can't understand why a cracked coping would automatically lead to a new liner.

[waste]

I agree, if the coping does need to be replaced, it's not too hard to do it in sections to preserve the existing liner :)

Please let us know what the first guy has to say.

[maherba]

I have the two quotes now: for the pool deck replacement with stamped concrete, Company 1 will charge $5,800. Company 2 won't do it without replacing the coping and liner, so the cost for deck, liner and coping would be $14,600. The alternative they offer is to saw around the pool, about a foot out from the coping, and mortar stones on top of that area (that way they don't need to jackhammer near the coping) -- they would then tear out the rest of the deck and replace it with stamped concrete up to the level of the stones. The whole thing would end up being about two inches higher than the surrounding area. This would cost $11,300.

Company 1 says they haven't damaged a liner in 12 years, during which time they've replaced about 30 or 40 decks. They estimate that the coping gets damaged in about one-third of the jobs. Company 2 specializes in pool rehabs and says that there's no way the job can be done without replacing the coping and liner. I'm not sure who to believe.

[DougM]

Curious - have you made a decision?

If you haven't you might want to see if they have any 'reference' customers they could put you in contact with to talk to and ask about their experience, tough given this was 6 weeks ago I'm guessing you may have made a decision already.

[maherba]

Well, fast forward almost a year! We went with the company that said they could re-do the deck without damaging the liner and they were true to their word. They did a fabulous job and the deck and patio looked superb!

However...

Over the course of the past winter, the steps cracked and heaved again! Of course, that much movement in the steps cracked the brand new stamped concrete deck on both sides. It's going to cost me $3K to have the concrete taken up and replaced -- and no guarantee that the new section will match. I know they will try their best because they pride themselves on their workmanship and they're very good at what they do.

The bigger problem is what to do about the steps and what is causing this constant heaving! I don't want to have them patched again because I have no confidence that it will hold.

What do you think can be causing this problem? We've ruled out high groundwater or water running toward the step area (the concrete slopes gently away so the run-off goes toward the lawn and the garden. The experts I've talked to suggest it may be a case of the steps being improperly supported from below, which is causing flexing, which in turn leads to cracking and water getting under the steps. In the winter, of course, the water freezes, expands and pushed the steps up out of the concrete.

Does that sound plausible to you?

[TheGoose]

In reading your thread I was thinking to myself "Don't fix the deck, it will crack again!"....and I didn't even realize this was an old thread.

I'd hate for you to see my deck, it's in terrible shape, but I don't want to put any money in it so I just live with it.

[vinper]

In your pics the cocrete does not look uneven . If its not uneven ,they can grind the cracks and apply a mastic with membrane, Then you can do a acrylic stamped concrete finish right over the existing decking ..And the cracks will not come through