Please Help / Advise

[meajma]

Greetings all,

I used to read alot here in the past, and then I think that I got lazy and let a few things slip. Also, after reading a few posts, I think that I too may be a victim of zero CYA at pool opening and so I'm now dealing with cloudiness ect..

I purchased Ben's 232 kit a few years ago, I'm not sure how valid my testing is because of the age of the kit.. My powder has become almost solid and dark, although it still seems to work/react according to the instructions.

First, a few details..

I have an IG 16x32 vinyl liner pool. It has basically been fed BORAX for PH control and Tri-Chlor 3" pucks for sanitizer, with the typical cal-hypo shock treatments when needed. This has been going on for ~4-5 years now, since we bought the pool. It's located in MA. For winterization, I drain ~2" below the jets and then fill the lines with pool anti-freeze.

When I pulled the cover off (~1 week ago), I had noticable green color.. not horrifying, but there nonetheless.. I started by shocking of course and scrubbing the liner. I also added a box of borax and a couple of those clarifier balls (pink #2) to help clear it up. Pump has been running 24/7.

Now it's ~1 week later and it's looking alot better.. although still a bit cloudy in the deep end. I've vac'd and backwashed quite a bit.

Yesterday, I checked some levels before vacuuming..

PH is ~7.4
FC is ~2.5
CC is ~6

I had checked my CYA somewhere just after opening.. it was 0, ie, full tube with the black dot being easily visible. SO, I've been using my feeder with pucks to hopefully get that back up.

After vacuuming yesterday, it looks pretty good, but a little cloudy at the deep end as mentioned. I backwashed and then added another box of Borax and two bags of HTH shock.. I didn't have any bleach and it was getting late.

So, I would simply appreciate any advise as to what to do short term and long term. Short term to get it up for this season.. and perhaps a better operating scheme to run it more optimally from this point on.

As mentioned, I have let a few things slip.. It seemed so easy using the BORAX and the pucks, but now after returing to this site.. it seems as though there's a little more to it than this.. even though the goal is to let it be fun and not a lot of work.. ;-)

So, thanks in advance for all of your help.. AND.. sorry if this is too much to ask.. Please feel free to ask for any other details.

I'm waiting for Ben's 234 test kit to arrive. So again, please be advised that my test results are coming from a 232 that's a few years old.

Thanks again,

Mark in MA

[JohnT]

Your combined chlorine reading is the key issue. You need to get it below 0.5 by shocking the pool.

[meajma]

Forgot to mention that I have a Jacuzzi sand filter.. pretty large, but not sure of the exact size and type. Same with the pump, not sure of the size although it's single speed, on or off. Both purchased with the Pool from a long term reputable dealer in RI.. Lakeside Pools.

[meajma]

Your combined chlorine reading is the key issue. You need to get it below 0.5 by shocking the pool.

Thanks, I'll take another reading tonight and then shock again.

So, is that getting rid of the CC.. ie, is it getting filtered out somehow.. or does it turn into something else..?

It's pretty fascinating reading some of these posts.. ie, algae eating and pooping stuff.. (I hate when that happens).. and so I'm assuming that I also have a lot of dead algae.. and what is making it cloudy..? dead algae.? I know that's a broad question with many possibilities.. although is it something obvious in this case..?

[DavidD]

First, I think your CC level of 6 is suspect. I would definitely test it again.
Secondly, you should get your FC level higher than 2.5, say around 10 ppm, and hold it there for a couple of days (CC is the "poop" you mentioned previously, or also known as used up FC. Shocking will inturn get rid of it.). This will require shocking and I'd use plain ultra bleach. I'm not sure how many gallons it will take since you didn't say how many gallons your pool is. You will have to add it several times a day, brushing and vacuuming to waste at least once a day. You could also use Cal Hypo to shock but since you didn't post CH (calcium hardness) numbers it is not at the top of my recommendations since your CH level may be high from last years shocking.

Since your CYA is 0, I see nothing wrong with using the "pucks" after you get rid of the algae but keep a close eye on PH as they tend to lower it rather quickly. Don't use them now and empty your feader if you have one while using the bleach. You should also post your ALK numbers as well. Hold off putting any other chemicals/clarifiers in the water until this problem is resolved.

[meajma]

Thanks for your advise David.

I did shock it with a couple of bags last night after taking my readings.. so I'd imagine that my FC has gone up considerably. I'll check both again when I get off work.

I was curious about my ALK and so I think it tested around 120 or thereabouts. I'm not sure of the CH as I have not yet tested for that.

I'm working until 7PM today and also tomorrow, so I may not be able to do much for now, but after that I'll have a few days to focus all my attention on it. I'm running the pump 24/7 in the mean time.

Thanks again, it's much appreciated.

[DavidD]

ALK seems fine and unless your CH is way high (450 or above?) it should also be fine. The main point is that you should keep your FC up until the algae is gone. You can go ahead and get started by shocking again tonight if needed. Any idea how many gallons you have?

[meajma]

being a 16x32 with a 3' shallow end and an 8' deep end, I'd guestimate ~24000 gallons.. does that sound close..? I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in that ballpark.

[meajma]

I'll test my CH tonight as well and then post it.

Does it being too high result in cloudiness etc.. ?

[DavidD]

24k gallons could be right but I'd guess around 22k. Either way, one gallon of 6% bleach should raise your FC by ~2.5ppm. High CH can cause scaling but sometimes shocking with cal-hypo with high CH will cause cloudiness, however I'll bet your issues all stem from the algae.

[waterbear]

A couple of thoughts.....

If the DPD powder is black I would not trust the resuts....get a cheap OTO kit (turns yellow to test for TC) and check the level until Ben's kit arrives. IF the OTO shows high levels of TC around where you are testing now then you very well might have a huge chlorine demand going on right now becuase of the bacterial breakdown of the CYA. This is going to take a LOT of bleach or shock to eat up the 'poop'.

Check the third post in this thread for Ben's advice
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1001

ALK of 120 is fine.

Your Calcium level is is only a concern if you have very hard fill water. Cal Hypo does add some calcium to your pool but not that much.
You might want to test the Calcium hardness just for peace of mind. If it is much above 400 then raising your pH to 7.8 might cause some cloudiness but as Ben said in the above thread your filter should take care of that. Once again for peace of mind, you might want to stick with just bleach to shock.

It might take some time and a lot of bleach to kill the algae and clear the pool but it will and you will be swimming soon.

Post a recent set of full test results and that will help to see just where you are now.

[meajma]

Thanks again Dave, and Waterbear !

I do hope that my 234 kit arrives soon so that I can post some results with confidence, although from what I'm reading in these forums.. the numbers are making sense in that respect.

I have read that thread waterbear, and that's what makes me think that I have a similar situation.

Either way, I'll try to get another set of results posted by tonight to see how thinhgs are progressing.

It's great to have this type of feedback here. I'm thankful for all the help that you folks offer.

Mark

[meajma]

OK so I left work early in order to test the pool again. Unfortunately I still am using the old 232 test kit. I'll pick up a OTO kit to verify TC when I go get bleach..which will be in a few minutes.

Results were pretty much as expected..

PH 7.6 (I had added a box of BORAX last night before shocking)
FC 5.0 (better than yesterday, shocked with cal-hypo last night)
CC 7.0 (makes sense that it increased, after shocking last night)
ALK 170
CH 190
CYA 0
Temp ~65 C but that's a feel guestimate, it was ~80 deg F here for most of the day.

So, I'm off to Naamco right now to get some bleach. I'll check for any replies when I get back. Will probably be gone for ~1 hour.

Thanks again for all your help!

Mark

[prh129]

If you got the FC up to shock levels, I would expect your CC to go down not up. I wonder if you're not getting the FC up high enough.

[meajma]

I mentioned that I shocked with two bags of HTH cal-hypo last night, so I would have expected that to make the FC much higher than 5, as it was when I tested this afternoon.. SO. unless my thinking is backwards, wouldn't that mean that the FC was higher, then used up to a certain extent, making the CC level higher..?

I could be totally wrong, I'm simply making assumptions..

I just bought two 5 gal drums of liquid bleach (12.5 % sod hypo)..

How much should I dump in there..?

[prh129]

The text below is from "Water Chemistry for Swimming Pools" that is linked in one of the threads in the "using chlorine" section. My understanding is that shocking = superchlorinating and if you succesfully shock then CC should go to 0. From the text below, it says to do that FC needs to be 10x of CC which would be 70 ppm in your case which sounds way too high. I don't have the experience to suggest what you should do so I won't.

*************************

Breakpoint Chlorination is the process by which combined chlorine and some organics are "burned out" of the pool by addition of large amounts of chlorine. The reaction of chlorine with ammonia to form chloramines occurs in several stages with free chlorine consumed at each stage. If enough chlorine is added to the water the total chlorine residual will rise to a point that forces the reaction of chlorine with ammonia to go rapidly to completion. Compounds of nitrogen and chlorine are released from the water and the apparent residual chlorine decreases. The point at which the chlorine residual suddenly drops is called the breakpoint. When enough chlorine is added to pass the breakpoint, combined chlorine compounds disappear, eye irritation potential and chlorine odors disappear, and the chlorine remaining in the water is all in the free state.
Superchlorination: In order to prevent buildup of chloramines in the pool it is necessary to periodically add large amounts of new chlorine in an effort to pass the breakpoint. Public swimming pools should be supechlorinated about once a week. The amount of chlorine needed to reach the breakpoint will vary depending on the amount of organic material introduced by bathers and on the level of free chlorine maintained in the pool. If the amount of combined chlorine is known then the amount of new chlorine needed is ten times the amount of combined chlorine. When combined chlorine residual is not known, superchlorination is accomplished by adding 10 ppm of new chlorine to the pool. Ordinarily calcium hypochlorite at a dose of at least 1 lb. per 10,000 gallons is used for superchlorination. The chart below shows the amounts of various chlorine compounds which can be used to introduce 10 ppm of chlorine to the pool.
Chart No. 9 - Superchlorination
(Amount Needed to Introduce 10 ppm)
Type of chlorine GALLONS IN POOL
15,000 20,000 25, 000 50,000
Sodium Hypo 1 1/4 gal. 1 2/3 gal. 2 gal. 4 gal.
Lithium Hypo 3 1/2 lbs. 4 3/4 lbs. 6 lbs. 12 lbs
Dichlor 2 lbs. 2 2/3 lbs. 3 1/3 lbs. 6 3/4 lbs.
Calcium Hypo 2 lbs. 2 1/2 lbs. 3 1/4 lbs. 6 1/2 lbs.

[meajma]

Thanks for that prh, it's clear that I have much to learn. I'll take it slow and will try to get my FC up, I'll probably need to wait until I get my new kit as the readings seem suspect to a few folks here.

Thanks again,

Mark

[meajma]

So here's what I did last night..

I recorded my readings in a previous note.. the FC was only at 5 and I had a CC reading of 7. Yikes..

So, I took the Tri-Chlor pucks out of my feeder and rinsed everything out very well..

I purchased two 5 gal barrels of 12.5% sodium hypochlorite.

I poured ~ 1 gal directly into the skimmer, and then poured ~2.5 more gallons around the perimeter of the pool. I swashed it all around and waited ~ 1 hour.

Took another FC reading and had to put in 30 drops to make it turn clear.. so that made sense to me.. I had raised my FC up to ~15ppm.

BUT.. all those drops depleted my R0871 solution..so I can't test again until I get my 234 kit.

When I went to get the liquid chlorine last night at Naamco, I saw a cheapo test kit although the scale for chlorine only went up to 3 ppm, and even though it only cost $5, I didn't bother getting it.

Anyway, thanks alot for all your help. The pool looked pretty much the same this morning.. not bad at all, just still a little cloudy in the 8' end.

[DavidD]

Bummer on the R0871. Hate to stop now so If it were me, Id got back to the pool store with a sample and let them test. Be sure to take the sample directly there and keep it in the shade. If they sell Taylor chemicals, you may get lucky (extremely lucky) and they have R0871. It appears you have the "biofilm" problem Ben mentioned (see Waterbears post above). Problem is, without a good test method and 0 CYA and no way to test I don't know exactly how to advise. You must keep the FC between 10 and 15 in order to beat this. Yo Yoing won't do anything but feed the bio and cost you money. You are going to be using up chlorine FAST with the "bio" and the UV. You should probably buy the chepo kit if you can't get R0871 and use "Carl's patented shot glass method" of testing which is basically diluting the samples with distilled water to make a tester that was intended to test up to 5ppm to test higher. Use a 1 part pool water to 3 parts distilled water and see what happens. If the test reads 4 you have 16ppm. Only problem is that most of these only test for TC and cannot determine FC or CC which is really what you need. Hope the pool store is close....

[meajma]

Yeah, bummer...

But, I just called another local pool store and they do free testing so I'll at least be able to get some results until my 234 arrives. I'm sure that they'll also try to sell me everything in their store but that's the way it goes when ye let things slide..

I'll keep the FC up there and post any progress or questions.. speaking of questions..

IF I keep the FC up there.. what am I expected to see.. ? Will it be that my CC decreases until it gets to 0.5 or somewhere around there..?

Anything else that I should notice or pay close attention to..?

Thanks again ya'll !

Mark

[aylad]

With a vinyl liner and 0 CYA, if you'll just up your chlorine to 12-15 ppm, re-test and add whatever amount is necessary to come back up to the 12-15 level 2-3 times daily, keep your pump running, then you should start to see your cc coming down. When it comes down to zero, then let your cl drift back down and add your CYA.

You can use trichlor pucks in your feeder if you add your liquid chlorine into the pool itself instead of the skimmer---once it's mixed with water, then you shouldn't have a problem. I add my bleach into the return stream with my feeder running on a regular basis.

Janet