Help with New Pool

[jongig]

We are in the process of trying to pick an installer to put in a pool and this is turning out to be quite a daunting task. I started this process a couple months ago and at that point I thought I had found an installer. At the point that I wanted to go through with it I couldn’t get them to come to the house and pick up a check. In the past three weeks I’ve spoken to several more and one gives a price that’s $10K over the others and then I have the debate of which to go with, fiberglass or vinyl. Since I live in zone 5 I’m concerned with heaving and cracking so I thought I’d go with vinyl but two companies say it’s the best way to go. I spent an hour with someone last weekend at my house and then never got back to us with a price.

Off with the story and onto direct questions.

Our ground temperature is 48 degrees and I’m surprised that when I mention insulating the pool the installers look at me funny. Why not insulate the pool and the piping? I will have to heat so why not try to keep it in.
I want to install a swim system and am leaning to the Badu Stream 3-jet 2-pump system. Any good or bad with this system?
One installation company sells both a Viking and a Liberty fiberglass pool and they say that since I want a basic size that going with the less expensive Liberty pool is a good idea. They also say both are made by the same company.

I think it was easier to build the house.

jongig

[Simbilis]

Regarding insulation, http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/education/cont_ed/manuals/solar_thermal_manual/documents/Section_5_SolarSwimmingPoolHeatingSystems.pdf says that conductive heat loss to the ground is extremely small compared to other losses. It's generally not worth the cost. However, you can get it if you want it - look for a dealer that sells insulated-wall pools like http://www.radiantpools.com.

I'm in northern VT, and I skipped the insulation. Can't tell you how good a choice that was, because we're still building ;)

[jongig]

Regarding insulation, http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/education/cont_ed/manuals/solar_thermal_manual/documents/Section_5_SolarSwimmingPoolHeatingSystems.pdf says that conductive heat loss to the ground is extremely small compared to other losses. It's generally not worth the cost. However, you can get it if you want it - look for a dealer that sells insulated-wall pools like http://www.radiantpools.com.

I'm in northern VT, and I skipped the insulation. Can't tell you how good a choice that was, because we're still building ;)

The document refers to Florida where the ground temperature is over 70 f and the air temperature average is 80 f. I've worked on some of this but with ponds and rubber liners. The losses are quite large. It also depends on soil and not just temperature but moisture content. Here in NE-PA we have clay which will retain moisture and is a good thermal conductor. Also they mention concrete as a good insulator and that could not be farther from the truth, it's more of a conductor than a iinsulator.

Think of the square footage of liner you have and the fact that the liner seperates the ground which is in my case 48 f and the water which is 80 f. If you just had r-5 or r-10 of insulation value you could save a lot in heating costs.

I also know from experience that PVC piping is a great heat exchanger with the ground. I've found a few easy ways to insulate the pipe and eliminate the problem. My favorite is to take say 2 inch pipe and wrap it with HVAC foil-bubble wrap while sliding it through a 3 inch PVC pipe. At either end I seal the pipes together with fernco (rubber) connections.

jongig

[Simbilis]

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-loss-open-water-tanks-d_286.html is worth a look, then. With bare steel it looks like 1" of foam might be a good value. Too bad it doesn't show numbers for polymer walls.

Can you really get a worthwhile layer of insulation on a pool bottom for reasonable cost? I'd be worried about rigid foam breaking, and flexible foam shifting or developing water pockets. This guy (http://ambivalentengineer.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-insulated-pool.html) was ok with it, though.

[jongig]

First, is there a reason why I can't post a pictures to this thread? I went to the FAQ page but it doesn't exist.

[aylad]

Ben (the site's administrator/owner) has disabled all live links from the site, as a security measure. However, if you want to include a link that can be copied/pasted into a browser you can, but be aware that Ben is the only one that will be able to mod that post onto the forum. Kind of a pain, I know, but he was having trouble with hacker attacks so that was one step he implemented to protect the other users of this forum.

Janet