Trying to learn to adjust chemicals

[onemsmom]

I'm still trying to learn to adjust my chemicals myself. Here's what I tested this a.m.

I'm a 24'round above ground (13,000gals)

4.4 FC
no CC
7.8 pH
1 drop acid demand
150 TA
225 Ch
49/50 CYA

Also, FYI, I just fought off another algae bloom & pool is quite cloudy - never even cleared up from last time.

I think I need to do the following:

1/2 gal chlorine
1c muriatic acid
8.36 lb sodium bisulfate ???? (should I do this?)

Also - should I try a clarifier for cloudiness? Not sure how I can clear this up. Pump is running continuously - is not clearing up. I was reading about having too strong of a pump for the filter (blowing right back into water) - could this be the problem? My pump is 1.5 hp. Filter is a Hayward C-900.

Thanks very much,

Jennifer

[aylad]

Congratulations on taking control of your own pool. Looks like you've done a good bit of the homework and almost have it down!!

There are lots of reasons why your water could be cloudy. One of them is that the dead algae from the last outbreak never got cleared up, and with a 1/5 hp pump on a 13K gallon pool, I'd say that you very well may have too much pump. In that case, using a clarifier isn't going to help much, because it'll still just blow back into the pool. I'm assuming the filter is a cartridge? Might want to consider carefully inspecting it to see if there's any evidence of rips, tears, etc. that might be letting stuff through. Also, dirty filters tend to clean better than clean ones--are you possibly cleaning it too often? If the problem is oversized pump, then your better bet might be to shut the pump off and let all the stuff settle to the bottom, then vac it out, especially if you can do so to waste and bypass the filter.

Another possiblity for cloudy water may be your calcium, which is a little high, combined with high pH and TA. Those two levels being high can make the calcium precipitate out of the water. I would use the muriatic, but only enough to drop your pH to 7.0-7.2. That will drop your TA at the same time. Then aerate the pool by pointing your returns up or attaching a fountain (or filling it with splashing kids) to bring your pH back up a little while leaving your alk down. If the problem is due to higher calcium, that might help to clear it up some. (I wouldn't use any cal-hypo products for chlorination). Don't use the muriatic AND the sodium bisulfate, because they will both bring pH down. If you're more comfortable with the dry acid, you could use that instead of the muriatic, but it takes much more to get the job done, and adding dry powder to an already cloudy pool is going to make it difficult to determine if the problem is better or worse.''

I would leave the clarifier alone for now, use what you know you need, and see how that does first.

Janet

[onemsmom]

Thanks very much, those were a lot of great ideas - we will get started on them.

Jennifer

[onemsmom]

Two more questions....

How long should I have it at 7.0/7.2 before I start aerating it (I have a fountain I can turn on) and

Is it safe for the kids/us to swim in it when the pH is that low, or should I wait to swim until it comes back up?

Thanks,

Jenn

[Watermom]

As soon as you get it down to 7.0-7.2 you can go ahead and start aerating. Also, there is no problem swimming with pH at that level.

[CarlD]

I don't think that even with that TA and CH level your cloudiness is coming from them. That's more likely to happen when CH is at or above 400 and TA is approaching 200.

However, I'm not convinced your algae is all gone unless your FC is at 4.4 after having kept the pool at a shocking level of 15 for a few days. If you haven't done that, then you'll need to push it to 15 to kill the last of the algae.

Definitely too much pump for the pool, and probably the cart filter. A 3/4 hp is MORE than enough, generally, for 13,000 gallons. You can fix it by replacing the filter with a larger one capable of handling the pump's gal per min output.

[onemsmom]

Can I just put a new FILTER in, or would I replace the whole filter unit?

[onemsmom]

Also,

Today, the #'s are:

2.5 FC
7.8 pH, 2 drops acid demand to 2.4
TA 130
Ca 300

After the aerating thing, it did get completely clear, but is now just slightly cloudy. The water is not green, but I have a little green sediment on the bottom after the filter/pump were off overnight.

I notcied the TA went down, but the Ca went up.

I am going to add the bleach & MA right now.

FYI - The tri-chlor puck has NOT been in the pool.

Do you think I need to do the "keep it up to 15 for several days" thing again? Or just keep on with the normal Chlorine/pH adjustments?

Jennifer
24' round above ground, 13,000 gal

[aylad]

After the aerating thing, it did get completely clear, but is now just slightly cloudy. The water is not green, but I have a little green sediment on the bottom after the filter/pump were off overnight.

I notcied the TA went down, but the Ca went up.

I am going to add the bleach & MA right now.

FYI - The tri-chlor puck has NOT been in the pool.

Do you think I need to do the "keep it up to 15 for several days" thing again? Or just keep on with the normal Chlorine/pH adjustments?

Jennifer
24' round above ground, 13,000 gal

You have to have a little patience when clearing up an algae bloom. If you shock the pool and don't keep it at shock level long enough to kill all the algae, then you're just wasting time and money. You need to shock it to 15 ppm and hold it there until 1) all the green is gone, 2) your combined chlorine is zero, AND 3) the water is clear. Only after all three indicators are met, should you let the chlorine come back down. And even then, you don't want it to ever get below 3 ppm. Letting it get below 3 ppm with a CYA of 50 is an invitation for the algae to come right back in. "The aeration thing" is not to clear the water up, but rather to raise your pH back up after you've added acid to lower TA. You can try turning the pump off overnight to let the stuff settle and then vacuum it to waste, or keep the filter running to try to filter out the dead algae, but only after you have killed all the algae and removed it from the water through vaccing or filtering will you have clear water.

Janet

[onemsmom]

I've been doing well for a while now & pool has been clear and blue. I thought of two questions that will help me understand more......

Should the CC ALWAYS be zero? If you get a little pink on the CC test even though FC ppm are 3-6, does that mean you have to do the whole "push the ppm up to 15 until the three indicators are met" thing again?

and

Now that it's cold & we are not swimming, do I still need to mainain the ph and other levels besides chlorine, or is that just for when we are swimming? We do not "close down" or cover the pool (we live in FL) - we just aren't swimming because it's to chilly.

Thanks!

Jennifer

[Watermom]

To answer your questions ---

Yes, you always want the CC to be zero, although if it is 0.5 at times, that is no big deal. In regards to maintaining your other levels --- you want to make sure the pH never drops below 7.0 as any reading lower than that is acidic and will damage your pool. Since you never close the pool, just test cl and pH once in awhile and keep them in check. Everything else should be fine until swim season next year.

Glad you are still around! Merry Christmas!

Lisa

[waterbear]

where in FL do you live? If you are in the northern part of the state that gets fairly cold weather then you can cut your filter run time down to about 4-6 hours a day and check your levels every two weeks. If you are getting the chance of a hard freeze (like my area expects in a few days in NE Florida nearJax) then run your pump 24/7 until it passes to prevent the pipes from freezing.

If you live in the southern part of the state (I grew up and also lived part of my adult life in Miami then lived in Lauderdale for many years before moving to the St. Augustine area) then maintain the pool as usual since what is 'too chilly for swimming' down there are normal swimming temperatures, both air and water, in the northern parts of our country in the summer (I vacation in Cape Code and New Hampshire in the summer and it's a true fact!)

Hope this helps.

[onemsmom]

Thanks very much! Now I won't freak out and send DH to the store for bleach when I see .5 CC. :)

I'm in the middle of the state, so I'll tone down the filter time a bit, but keep things mostly normal until it's warmer.

It's too cold to swim now, but I do remember years when I was in the pool in January!

Have a wonderful Christmas (or any other holiday you celbrate!),

Jennifer

[onemsmom]

I've been going along fine all of this time & then missed a few days, so I'm seeing green and need to do the shock thing again.

I did my CYA and it doesn't get cloudy enough to cover the dot almost at all - even up to the tippy top, so my CYA is way less than 30.

So, how do I know how much ppm I should keep the bleach at to shock the pool until there's no more than 1ppm drop, no green, etc.?

It used to be 15, but that was when my CYA was 30ish.

Since my CYA is so low - can I throw a few pucks in? I was hoping that would help me keep the ppm up while I'm shocking. If that would work, that would help soooo much. This shocking thing is so hard for me due to my hectic life - I'm not around the house so much to keep checking and adding, checking and adding, checking and adding.........

Thanks so much,

Jennifer

[onemsmom]

If it helps to know - my ph is very high - it needed 6 drops in the "acid demand" test. I haven't added the muriatic acid yet. Wanted to hear what you guys said about the pucks first.

Jenn

[Watermom]

It would actually help if you could post a complete set of current water testing results.

I would shock it up to around 12 with bleach. Once your pool is clear, you can use some trichlor pucks for awhile since your cya is low but keep an eye on it. It can quickly get too high if you don't. But, pucks aren't going to help you clear the pool. It will not take the cl high enough. Save them for after you clear the green.

[onemsmom]

OK, here it is:

FC: 9 (I added a jug of bleach to raise that)
CC: 0
Ph: 8.0 + Acid demand test to 6 drops to get to 7.4
TA: 240-250
CA: 370
CYA: wasn't cloudy at all even at tippy top - so way less than 30

I didn't do anything yesterday other than add bleach over night - I added 3 jugs last night, so boy, it went way down by this morning!

BTW, I knew pucks wouldn't raise my FC enough to shock - I meant - would adding the pucks WHILE I'm shocking with bleach help to keep the FC up more easily - not so much fluctuation?

Thanks so much for your help.

Jennifer

[Watermom]

I would just hold off on using the pucks for now. After it is clear, you can use them for awhile until your cya gets to where you want it. Keep hitting it with bleach until you can go from sundown one night to sunup the next day without losing more than 1ppm. Also, run the pump 24/7 while you are trying to clear it. What kind of filter do you have? Do you still have that big pump on this pool? Is the water still green? Any improvement?

[onemsmom]

Yes, the big pump. Not much chance of my husband letting me change it until it explodes or doesn't work any more.

The water wasn't green, it was just starting to grow green on the bottom. I've been bleaching and I just vacuumed/swept sides. NOW the water looks a little green and quite cloudy.

I'll keep the bleach going until I get it cleared up as I did before.

Consistancy is not a strong point of mine, nor is my life condusive to it, but I am trying my very best. Now that the outside temp is heating up, I'm going to need to tackle the consistency thing, or I'm going to be seeing a lot of green and making a lot of trips out for bleach.

This might help - once my pool is clear & balanced again - do the chemicals & additives HAVE to be done at night? If I could do them in the a.m. or afternoon - that would work much better for me. I have so many evening activities with the kids and making/cleaning up dinner, reading, putting them to bed, etc.! The pool just doesn't get delt with before I collapse sometimes - and then by the next day - it's TOO LATE! BLEACH CITY! fyi, I live it blistering hot Florida if that affects answer.

Also, should I try to adjust pH now, or just deal with the algae bloom for now?

Jenn

Thanks,

Jenn

[onemsmom]

Nice and blue this morning. A little cloudy. Much improved. :)

Still shocking till I hit all of the goals,

Jennifer

[Watermom]

Glad it is looking better. Keep at it and soon will be all clear. Then, we'll help you tweak the other levels.

[aylad]

Sounds like you're making progress--Watermom's advice, as always, is right on the mark.

Just wanted to make a comment, though--it probably wouldn't hurt anything to throw a few trichlor pucks in a floater--they won't do anything to keep your chlorine levels up to shock level, as Watermom said, but it never hurts to have a residual. You are going to have to add CYA at some point anyway, and what you'll get from the pucks alone shouldn't raise it too high that you can't keep it under control, especially in Florida with the amount of sun and hot weather y'all get. You are close enough to having it cleared up that you're going to need CYA in the water to hold the chlorine there once you are at a point of letting the chlorine drift down. Besides, they will lower your pH, which needs to happen anyway......

Also, just wanted to add that the chem additions don't HAVE to be done at night, if it doesn't fit in with your lifestyle--the idea here is to get the pool care to fit into your schedule, not the other way around! :) The reason we recommend night time is that the chlorine has much more time to work without consumption by the sun than it does if you add it in the morning, but if morning is when you have time for it, then you can certainly add it then. As far as the other chems go, time of day doesn't matter at all.

JMHO...

Janet

[onemsmom]

Thanks! Yes, the morning is better.

The pool has been crystal clear for a few days now & met all requirements for being agae free.

Yesterday I adjusted pH by adding muriatic acid. Was that right? I hate that stuff.

Today:

FC 6
CC 0
pH7.6
TA 230-240

How do I get the TA down? My book says muriatic acid. Won't that lower pH???? I'm confused.

BTW, I threw a few pucks in yesterday.

Jenn

[aylad]

Here's the method described for lowering your TA.....

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191

You do use muriatic, and the pH and TA both drop, but then you raise the pH again by aerating the water. When the pH comes back up, then you can add another dose of acid to drop the TA a little further, then aerate to bring pH back up.

Janet

[CarlD]

Hi Jenn,

As usual, aylad and Watermom are guiding you correctly.

Lowering T/A is very do-able, but throw away "the book" . We have several threads on just how to do it.

But in a nutshell, T/A rises and falls as pH rises and falls, so you have to "trick" it to bring T/A down.

We call it the "ratchet" method as you ratchet the T/A down in multiple steps.

1) Add Muriatic Acid until the pH is between 7.0 and 7.2 (if you have a hard-sided pool you can go lower, but for vinyl-lined pools 7.0 is the minimum). Measure T/A at this point. It should be down some.

2) Then aerate the pool. You can do this with a fountain, a sprayer (I have one that cost $20 and screws into the return), a gang of 12-year olds splashing, or even just leaving the pool uncovered.

3) This raises pH without raising T/A with it--we have the "why" in other threads. Raise pH by aeration to 7.5/7.6

4) Now add more acid to lower pH again...and measure T/A again.

5) Aerate

6) Repeat until T/A is in the 80-120ppm range, then let aeration raise pH back to the 7.5/7.6 range.

[onemsmom]

You guys are so cool.

Off to muriatic and aerating fun,

Jennifer

[CarlD]

Of course! That's because we have crystal clear pools to cool off in! :D

[onemsmom]

Things have been going well - my pool is clear & blue, the chlorine levels are good, the pH is perfect, the alkalinity is still a tad high (140) but way better. Life is good.

Now, I need to deal with the CYA. I've been functioning with almost no CYA reading. I tested tonight, and even with the tube filled to the tippy top, it was only slightly cloudy. I could still see the little black dot just fine.

How do I raise the CYA? I know I need to be careful not to get it too high. How do I determine that when I can't determine the exact amount that's in there? Pool store?

Thanks so much,

Jennifer

[madwil]

I would assume 0 now, and add enough CYA to get to 30; it's a good place to start, and leaves room to add more later if you need to (like the option of leaving a floater with pucks in while on vacation!)
You can buy CYA (sometimes called stabilizer) at the pool store- or some Walmarts (mine doesn't carry it...)
You can put it in the skimmer- but don't backflush for several days, as it will collect in your filter and dissolve over time.
You can also put in a sock and hung in front of your returns.
After a week, test your CYA again, adjust more if needed!

[Watermom]

Sometimes stabilizer is called conditioner. Check the label. You want cyanuric (or isocyanuric) acid. Also, if you put it into the skimmer to dissolve in the filter, which is the way I do it, leave your pump running 24/7 for several days afterwards.

[onemsmom]

The day has come at last!!! My pump died. I looked for my other post that had your recommendations on a less powerful pump on it, but I can't find it. Could you tell me what pump I should go and buy? I'm not sure what info you need. I have a 24' round, 13,000 gallon. I have a Hayward C900 cartridge filter.

Thank you!

Jennifer

[Poconos]

First question is what happened to the pump? Failed to start, hums, nothing, leaks, smoke? Watermom has the same size pool and the pump is a Hayward Superpump, SP2600X5, 1/2 HP 120Volt. It's an inground model but so what. Baskets are easier to open and clean and they're probably built better that those sold as AG pumps. She's been using it for several years now and the suction and flow are quite sufficient for vacuuming and running her cleaners. She can give you more details on those if needed. The flow rate on that would be a good match for your C900 filter which is rated at 90 GPM. There are a lot of pump problems that are simple fixes and yours may be simple, or not.
Al

[onemsmom]

I'm getting a faint hum or sometimes nothing at all. Does that tell you anything?

[Poconos]

The faint, or low level hum is a common problem. Totally quiet and dead is something else and won't get into that now. I don't know how gutsy you are to dive into this problem but here it goes. What I describe is applicable to most pump motors but not all. In simple terms there are two windings in these motors. One is powered as long as the pump power is on and the other is used to get it started and disconnects when the rotor comes up to speed. This starter winding is in series with a capacitor and a centrifugal switch. When the rotor is stopped the switch is closed to power this circuit. Two things can go wrong. The capacitor can short or open and in either case the motor won't start. Soluion is to replace the capacitor for $10 or less. The second problem, which is more common and indicative of your problem, is the switch contacts get dirty over time and won't make contact. When power is applied the starter circuit is open and all you get is a low level hum. The solution is to clean the contacts. Something to try is to apply power and shock the motor by smacking it with the flat side of a 2x4 or some flat piece of wood but don't dent the motor housing. If it starts, great. If not, smack it a few more times. Many times the jolt will cause the contacts to close and start the motor. This isn't a permanent fix but WILL identify the problem. the permanent fix is to clean the contacts. Before going any further be sure the power if off and cannot come on unexpectedly. The switch contacts are usually located at the back end of the motor where the wires enter. Remove that cover and you'll see the contacts and the centrifugal switch mechanism. The contacts can be dressed ideally with a fine flat metal file but is you can't get in there you can use 600 grit sandpaper (auto store, Home Depot, etc). The contacts are usually silver and soft so you don't have to grind away. Fold a strip of sandpaper to make it double sided and run it between the contacts a few times. That should fix the problem.
I have no idea how many motors have been fixed like this over the years saving people many $$$. Hope yours is as simple. If you decide to pursue this and have more questions please don't hesitate to ask. At this point you have nothing to lose.
Al

(ajs-1)

[onemsmom]

I used Al's advice & our pump has lived all this extra time - so thank you, but now it is not working at all. Won't even start. Several questions. I am trying to price the Hayward Superpump he mentioned - can you tell me a good place to order this from? Also - my local pump repairman has recommended a Hayward "Max Flo" pump. It's prices are a little lower than the Superpumps that I am seeing, but so far, we can only find 3/4hp in stock. He's willing to install anything that I can find/order. Am I better off with the more expensive 1/2 hp Superpump? I hate trying to price shop for something I don't really understand all that well. Any advice, info is welcome.

Thank you,

Jennifer