Newbie - Help

[sw_stupid]

I'm so glad I found this place!!! My pool is three years old.
I believe it is 27,000 gallons - vinyl.
Aquarite generator. Pump runs 12 hrs a day!
It has worked great up until this year. I killed the pump over the winter (electric bills). And I haven't gotten it right yet. The salt level is now around 2700 - that's after adding 150 pounds of salt. It kinda fluctuates for whatever reason (I like to keep it at 2800). I've set the generator to 75% and I can't get more than about 1.5ppm of FC in it. My cya is at 42. Is that enough? My pH is at 7.6. Calcium hardness is a little low, but we got rain last night so I will wait for that to level out. The pool is very clean, BUT it is not yet crystal clear like it always has been. I assume it is the lack of FC, but I don't know what to do. I have tried the "super chlorinate" shock feature twice now with limited results. The FC will go up for a day or so but then go back down. I also have a small amount of green algae trying to form on the walls. I swear if I ever get this back to perfect, I will never turn the pump off again for extended periods.
BTW: Could it be time to change my sand?

Help - I'm just very ignorant of this stuff. (If only it had a carburetor!)
Thanks for the time,
Brad

[Beautye350]

Brad,

Take a look at this post: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=414

This should explain what you need to do as far as getting your pool chemistry in line with what the Aquarite likes to see.

Hope this helps.


Regards,

Mark

[mas985]

Also, check to see that the cell is clean. When they get scale on them they tend to reduce chlorine production.

[sw_stupid]

I soaked the cell in a 25% muriatic acid solution - per Aquarite. It looks to be perfectly clean. Anybody got a "life-span" on filter sand? Basically, I think my problem is that I can't get/keep FC in it. You would think running the pump 12 hrs a day at 75% on the Aquarite, I would see a change, but it slowly dissipates. I added another 50 lbs of salt again today. It was at 2700 before so I will see tomorrow how far it changes. Should my cya really be around 80? If so could that be my problem - it is 42 now.

Thanks for the replies,
Brad

[duraleigh]

Hi, Brad,

Reading thru your first post, two thoughts come to mind.

One, Go get some Clorox and shock with it, not the SWG. It's cheaper and more effective. It seems SWG's are much better at maintaing a Cl level than trying to bring your ppm way up suddenly. I don't have mwsmith2's calc in front of me but You'll need somewhere around 6-8 gallons of Clorox and your algae issues will be history, I believe.

Secondly, check with your SWG's recommendations on CYA level....I think they want you up around 80ppm.

Okay....trade-out time...would you stop by my house and help me get my lawnmower running? Sounds like you could do it!!! :D :D

[sw_stupid]

Okay, you got it. I just have a hard time believing I should put laundry bleach in my pool. You all know a lot more about this stuff than I do so I’ll do it. I need to maintain about 3-5 ppm of FC, right? I checked my algaecide this morning and it’s not “poly”. I read what Ben said about only use poly so I won’t be using this junk anymore. I always wondered why you couldn’t just forego the algaecide and maintain it with chlorine and now I guess the answer is yes, you can. Does anyone know if the SWC cells have a life span? Will they last and last if properly cleaned? Or do they kinda start wearing down after a while? Everyone said pools were a lot of work and they hated having them and I didn’t know how they felt until now. Hopefully, I can get everything back in order (with your help) and enjoy this thing again. Another question: (I’ll have them all asked eventually)
Is calcium hardness and calcium the same thing? I saw where Ben said not to worry about calcium in a liner pool. I understand why, but is that the same thing as calcium hardness? I am always adding that stuff – they say it’s our local water.
Anyone here use a sand filter? I am just wondering how often the sand gets changed. The local pool store said I probably have algae growing in the filter. This doesn’t make sense to me because the algaecide/chlorine/whatever flows through the filter so it should kill it.

Thanks again – this place is great,
Brad

Lawnmowers – not a problem
Pool Water – rocket science!

[JohnT]

Does anyone know if the SWC cells have a life span? Will they last and last if properly cleaned? Or do they kinda start wearing down after a while?
Yes they do have a life span. The higher the level they are set for, the shorter the lifespan. That's the benefit of shocking with bleach. It extends the SWC life.


Everyone said pools were a lot of work and they hated having them and I didn’t know how they felt until now. Hopefully, I can get everything back in order (with your help) and enjoy this thing again. Another question: (I’ll have them all asked eventually)
2 or 3 minutes a day is all it takes when you stay on top of it.


Is calcium hardness and calcium the same thing? I saw where Ben said not to worry about calcium in a liner pool. I understand why, but is that the same thing as calcium hardness? I am always adding that stuff – they say it’s our local water.
Calcium hardness is a measure of the amount of calcium in your pool.


Anyone here use a sand filter? I am just wondering how often the sand gets changed. The local pool store said I probably have algae growing in the filter. This doesn’t make sense to me because the algaecide/chlorine/whatever flows through the filter so it should kill it.
The sand will last a very long time unless you add weird things to the pool. You are right that the algae in the filter thing doesn't make sense. Two things work against it: One is the chlorine circulating through it. Second is the lack of sunlight inside the filter.


Thanks again – this place is great,
Brad
Yes it is.

[sw_stupid]

So should I worry about the calcium hardness levels in my liner pool or can I ignore it? I firmly believe that the pool store's main objective is to keep you confused so you continue to go to them for help. They band-aid it for a while and when it shows back up, you head back for their advice because they were so smart the previous time.

Thanks yet again,
Brad

[JohnT]

So should I worry about the calcium hardness levels in my liner pool or can I ignore it? I firmly believe that the pool store's main objective is to keep you confused so you continue to go to them for help. They band-aid it for a while and when it shows back up, you head back for their advice because they were so smart the previous time.

Thanks yet again,
Brad

I think you've figured out the poolstore thing.:D There are levels where calcium is an issue, even in vinyl pools. Go to Ben's tips on Poolsolutions.com and read the one about calcium in vinyl liner pools. I don't know firsthand about it, but whatever Ben says, I believe because he hasn't steered me wrong yet.

[gwrace1]

If your salt level is really only 2700PPM then I would advise bringing it up to at least 3200PPM. I've run our pool as high as 3600PPM and could still taste next to no salt in the water.

At 2700PPM your bearly at an acceptable salt level for the Aquarite. My Aquarite takes several days to properly register any salt changes.

[sw_stupid]

All right I'm gettin this. Is there a tell tale sign that my SWC cell is on the blink? How will I know? I think the display is wrong on the salt level, but I'll find out when the kit gets here. My confusion with salt level and the SWC is this: If the display says 2700 and the test says 3500 (which is what the pool store says) which does it use to generate? If it generates based on its display, that explains the low FC. If it generates based on the actual level, which is much higher, then the chlorine is going somewhere - or the cell sucks, or something. I sure hope these things last longer than 3 years, but who knows. Gettin bleach tonight and ordered Ben's kit last night. Should be just a matter of time now.

Thanks in advance for the answers,
Brad

[duraleigh]

Hi, Brad,


I need to maintain about 3-5 ppm of FC, right? Just so we're on the same page, I'm recommending an initial dose of Cl up around 16 -18ppm to clear your pool. Keep it that high until your pool is clear, then come down to 3 - 5ppm....perhaps even less with the SWG :)

[Beautye350]

So should I worry about the calcium hardness levels in my liner pool or can I ignore it? <snip>

Thanks yet again,
Brad

Unfortunately YOU (read: SWG owner) cannot ignore the calcium. The aquarite manual wants it to be in a certain range (200-400). The reason you can't ignore it is this directly affects your saturation index which could lead to scaling or corrosion, depending on which way it is off.

Hope this helps.


Regards,

Mark

[waterbear]

All right I'm gettin this. Is there a tell tale sign that my SWC cell is on the blink? How will I know? I think the display is wrong on the salt level, but I'll find out when the kit gets here. My confusion with salt level and the SWC is this: If the display says 2700 and the test says 3500 (which is what the pool store says) which does it use to generate? If it generates based on its display, that explains the low FC. If it generates based on the actual level, which is much higher, then the chlorine is going somewhere - or the cell sucks, or something. I sure hope these things last longer than 3 years, but who knows. Gettin bleach tonight and ordered Ben's kit last night. Should be just a matter of time now.

Thanks in advance for the answers,
Brad I apologize for the length of this post but you have a lot of questions that I might be able to answer and I have some advice that you are free to follow or ignore;)

First is to get a good drop based test kit that will also measure salt levels.
It will become your best friend!:D Check out this thread
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=151
(think of it as your socket wrench set, timing light, sparkplug gap gauge, etc. for your pool...can't live without it when doing a tune-up!);)

The display on the SWG is actually a measure of the conductivity of the water. This will change with temperature, pH, and how much scale is built up on the cell. It also can be 'off calibration' and give an inaccurate reading. IF the pool store is using a drop based test I personally would believe that over the display on your cell. If they are using a salt test strip then I would assume that your salt level is higher than your readout and might be as high as the pool store says (precision of salt test strips tends to vary with the salt level). If they are using a meter to read it, well the display on the meter is actually a measure of the conductivity of the water. This will change with temperature, ph,....etc., etc., etc.:rolleyes:

IF (and it is a big IF) their meter is calibrated you can trust their reading. Problem is, can you trust their answer when you ask if they check the calibration of the meter on a regular basis?

The readout of the salt level has nothing to do with how much chlorine the cell is generating. That is set by the percentage of time the cell is on each hour of run time. Keeping your salt level at the higher instead of the lower end of the range will lengthen the life of your cell because it won't have to work as hard to produce chlorine. When the cell dies, from my understanding, it will usually just stop working. There might be some decrease in output as the cell ages but, once again to the best of my understanding, it should not be that significant. (Poolsean or Mark_Watermaid please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here!)

Now, my 2 cents on where your chlorine is going.


The pool is very clean, BUT it is not yet crystal clear like it always has been. I assume it is the lack of FC, but I don't know what to do. I have tried the "super chlorinate" shock feature twice now with limited results. The FC will go up for a day or so but then go back down. I also have a small amount of green algae trying to form on the walls.
You have cloudy water and some algae growing. This means you have a chlorine demand and the FC is being used up fast. You never posted your Total Chlorine readings (or if you did I missed them and apologize in advance). They would be illuminating because I would bet that they are higher than your FC. The superchlorinate setting is NOT the most efficient way to shock your pool and will only shorten the cell's life!

I would listen to Duraleigh and use bleach (sodium hypochlorite, exactly the same as "liquid chlorine" or"liquid shock" from the pool store except, maybe, for the concentration) and get your Cl up to 16-18 ppm and keep it up there until the pool clears. He and I are on exactly the same page here! I am willing to bet that the superchorinate setting just never got your FC levels high enough to take care of the problem. Bleach will do the trick and not shorten your cell life.

I don't think your cell is on the blink. It IS generating chlorine, just not enough (or enough fast enough) to take care of the temporary demand in your pool.

I am wondering where you got the CYA reading of 42. that sounds like a pool store reading and if they are not using a liquid or power reagent with a properly calibrated colorimeter/turbidity meter I would be suspicious of it. If they are using a drop based kit then there simply isn't that much precicsion in the test to give a reading of 42. We won't even talk about test strips!
Duraleigh was right on the money again when he said that Goldline controls recommends the CYA between 60-80 ppm. I have an Aqualogic ps-8 and run mine there. Works great!

Final thing, If you could post a current set of test results that have FC, TC, pH, ALK, CH, and CYA, and salt that would be most helpful in really getting a handle as to what is going on!

Final final thing. Take some time and read through the forum and the sister website www.poolsolutions.com (http://www.poolsolutions.com)
You will find a wealth of info and lots of help and helpful people. I bet in no time you will be changing your "nickname" to sw_smart;) It really ain't rocket science!

Edit: Just reread through one more time and something jumped out at me. You closed your pool for the winter and had no circulation (pump off). I am wondering what was the CYA level when you closed?
If it was higher than when you opened then it would help explain the chlorine demand you are seeing. Also did you add any CYA when you opened the pool to get it up to the reading of 42 that you posted?(ok, maybe semi-rocket science)

[sw_stupid]

I understand now that the chlorine demand is temporary and that is why the SWC has kept up in the past, because the high demand wasn't there. I can't ever remember which one should stay low CC or TC, but I think CC is 0 and TC is always the same as FC. Yes the cya was higher last year - I always kept it right on target. Yes I added 3 lbs of cya to get to the 42 level. I have since added 3 more and not sure of the level yet. Why did the cya level indicate to you the need for chlorine? Just when I thought I was gettin it.

I will post results when I get Ben's kit in. I don't plan on going back to the pool store. And yes, that's where the other results came from. All I have are the shtrips. Hopefully the shipments are fairly on time now.

I hope I can help others like this someday because you guys are great.

Excellent Resources - thanks
Brad

[Watermom]

You are right - you want CC to be 0 and FC = TC. (FC + CC = TC)

The connection between cya level changes from closing to opening and need for chlorine is explained in the third post of the following thread.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1001

[waterbear]

Brad,
Watermon nailed it! check out the thread. PoolDoc (Ben) explains it all!:) It REALLY isn't rocket science once you understand what is going on.