Above ground pool question....you don't even want to know why!

[SandyDittmer]

First off, I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.....but once you read it, you will understand why I wasn't quite sure.

We have an AG pool, 16x26, with a deep end of about 6.5 feet. It's unheated. I am the exclusive pool keeper in our family. Thanks to info I've learned here, I have been able to save myself a lot of time, and our family a ton of money over the years, I'm sure. Bleach and baking soda is about it truthfully. However, as I suspected might be the case eventually, our sons are teenagers now and I practically have to pay them (literally) to use the pool. Neither my husband nor I like cool water, and we do not have a heater. Hence, we don't even like going in unless the water gets up into the 80s honestly. It just seems our time with a pool has come to a close. I can't justify running a filter 8 hours a day, vacuming, adding bleach, etc. for somebody to go in once every three weeks. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It just makes you feel GUILTY.

We had a nice cedar deck built onto the pool when it was installed years ago. Please don't choke, but I have always been a nature lover, and have always wanted a pond. We are considering turning our pool into a pond rather than rip it down and try to get a few pennies out of it. I guess I'm not the only one, because after searching the net, I've seen quite a few people who had the same idea and actually did it. They were all inground pools though, so this would have certain challenges.

A couple questions that somebody here might be able to answer that might help in our decision......I know the pool freezes in the winter. We have a main drain in the deep end, and I have to winterize it by putting antifreeze in it. I've gone out and felt the ice, so I know it is freezing quite a ways down, but never measured how far. It would be helpful to know about how deep it freezes. I live in Southeast Michigan. Anybody have any clue how deep it might be freezing? And how does water freeze? From the top down, obviously, but how about from the outside in too? I'm assuming the portion of the deep end that is underground (about 1.5 to 2 feet) probably does not freeze. Would this be safe to say? I know a lot depends on the harshness of the particular winter, of course.

Another question that would be nice to have answered is if the main drain could be capped so that it could be taken out of the equation. Do they make a special cap to close it off if you no longer want to use it? We have a valve external to the pump which switches between skimmer and main drain, or a combination of both, but I would like to have the water not go into the underground plumbing at all to prevent freeze damage to the pipe. Obviously I could not use antifreeze....it would kill the fish.

I already know how crazy this probably sounds to most of you, because this is a group of real pool lovers. I understand totally. I have never been a real traditional person....I like different. Although we enjoyed our pool for many years, it really has served its purpose for our family and we are ready to move on to something new. So if anybody can answer these couple questions, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks a million! Please don't hurt my little feelings. I am feeling rather vulnerable lately. :o)

Sandy

[CarlD]

Maybe if you put in a solar panel or two your pool would get warmer and you'd enjoy it more....

[SandyDittmer]

Yeah, we already discussed that at length for several years and for various reasons, decided against it. We've decided it's the end of the pool era. So it's either going to be a pond or getting taken down. I opt for the first choice. If that doesn't work out, then we can take it down.

[aylad]

Hmmm, that's an interesting idea, have to put some thought into it to wrap my head around how well it would work. I don't know the answer to your question about the main drain, but I don't think the ice in the pool would be an issue for the fish as long as you can make some holes in the ice to allow air in. Poconos does this in his pool, I think he just partially weights some 5 gallon buckets to float in the water and lets the ice form around it, then removes the buckets. Maybe you could do something similar there?

What kind of fish are you planning to put into your pond? I have an 1100 gallon koi pond right next to my pool, and they do fine in the winter, as long as they can get to some source of air. Would you still keep your pump/filter intact to provide filtration?

janet

[SandyDittmer]

Hi, and thanks for the reply.

Well, if we can just kind of forget it is a pool and consider it an above ground pond, that seems to work better for most people. I would not be able to use the existing pool pump or filter, as filtration of a pond is a whole different animal than filtration of a pool. I will be making a biological filter (huge) from a stock tank. The sand filter would just clog immediately, and the pump is not geared toward moving the volume of water the right speed for a pond. So, in short, it will be filtered, but not with my pool equipment.

My main concern right now is is anybody knows how far down an above ground pool freezes in the winter. There would need to be some liquid water for the fish. I do believe that even if the whole 4 feet of shallow end freezes solid (which I doubt it would), at least the 2 feet that are underground in the deep end would remain liquid. The fish could go there. I will be having Koi, goldfish, Shubunkins, and/or a mixture of all. Not quite sure yet. I will keep a bubbler/aerator going in the winter, but turn off the main pump/filter unit until Spring.

It's just a thought in progress right now, but I am getting more excited about it the more research I do. It won't look like a landscaped inground pond like yours does, which I'm sure is beautiful. But I will be happy to have fish and lots of lillies, water hyacinths, water lettuce, cattails, etc.

Thanks for the input. I am going to call the pool place and ask about a main drain cover.

Have a good one!

Sandy

[Phillbo]

2 thoughts come to my mind.

The bubbler / aerator should prevent freezing and you may want to consider filling in the deep end, do you really want a 6.5' deep pond ? You may, I'm not familiar with the pond thing .

[SandyDittmer]

Hi. Yes, I do want a 6.5' pond. Koi like the water a bit on the deep side, so that won't be a problem.

I know what you mean though, pools and ponds are not the same animal for sure. I already have a small one, and there is no comparison other than they both contain water.

Take care!

Sandy

[Phillbo]

I was always under the impression Koi ponds were only a couple feet deep. I learned something today.

[aylad]

I learned it, too! :)

My pond is about 3 1/2 feet deep with a 1 foot deep shelf around the perimeter. My fish tend to stay at the top of the water, sometimes even crawling over the lily pads, but when the temps are extremely hot or cold they do tend to go deeper--I assume it's because the water temp changes more slowly there.



Janet

[AnnaK]

They go deeper when it's hot because the deeper water holds more oxygen.

Sandy, I love your idea of turning the pool into a fish pond. With the deck built around it the landscaping possibilities are endless. I envision lily pads, clumps of various grasses, vines, a waterfall, hidden lights . . . an oasis in your backyard.

I would probably start with the external landscaping and let the pool freeze over winter to get rid of the CYA. Mine ends the season with around 60 ppm and is at zero when it's finally thawed out the end of April. To the best of my knowledge all 48" or so freeze solid. We don't have a deep end.

But that would mean continuing the chlorine maintenance for the rest of this season and you probably don't want to do that.

[SandyDittmer]

Hi Anna,

I will continue the chlorine for this summer. My son's graduation party is in a week, so hopefully it will get some use then. I am working on my husband, who will probably be less than thrilled with my idea. But it just seems logical if I can get the right type of filtration going. We spent a lot of money for this pool and deck, and I don't see why we would just tear it down because we don't use it anymore. In a world where everybody is "repurposing", I can't think of a better time to go for it. I'm continuing my research. I don't want to do something that will end up even MORE work for myself. But if there's a do-able way, I will find it! I have always loved fish, and our home is too small for a nice sized aquarium. Imagine a 13,000 gallon one!

Thanks everybody for the comments.

Sandy

[waterbear]

If you have a sand filter then you have the filtration you need. Sand filters are the usual on ponds like that!

[BigTallGuy]

You might check with Your local utility company and ask them what the freeze depth is for your area. They should be able to answer this as that is the minimum depth for Water Pipes, Fire Hydrant lines etc. to be buried in the ground. You mentioned that 1.5 - 2.0 feet of your pool is below ground. I would think that portion would not freeze. (Says the BTDG from Arizona where it doesn't freeze).

[Poconos]

Sandy,
Here in northeast PA there there is a good size pond down the road that the owner aerates all year. He has to have a pretty big air pump and substantial piping because he has three areas he bubbles. Keeps the water oxygenated for the fish and ice free for the ducks. You could do the same on a smaller scale. Not sure if he does any filtration but I suspect not. Been doing it for years so the system works.
Al

[virangos]

Interesting idea. I'm in the north east of PA and my pool (15 x 30) freezes about 4 inches
thick during the coldest winters.

[Poconos]

4" is that all? I think the record thickness on my IG was around 17" with around 9 being average. I weight down a couple of 5 gallon Home Depot pails with a smaller bucket inside full of stone so they just float, then let them freeze in place. Pull out the stone bucket then yank on the handle and the buckets pop out leaving a hole in the ice. Measure the thickness through the hole and also drop a line in to see what I can catch. So far nothing.
Al

[CarlD]

I've had 9-12" of ice in my pool over the winter. I don't have to try ice fishing like Al (:rolleyes: ) because there's always a gap between the ice and the pool wall. I DO try to keep the winter fish out of my pool....:D

[SandyDittmer]

Okay, here's another question. I need to plug the main drain in my pool. After much research, I won't be using it for the pond.

I do not own scuba gear, nor do I know what I will be seeing once I get the main drain cover off. So......does anybody know what the internals of a main drain look like? The pool store guy said there should be two screws holding the main drain cover on. Once I get those out, I should see a 1.5" PVC pipe coming in from the side. He said to just use one of those rubber, expandable type plugs to plug it. I was hoping something threaded would work. Thought that might be more water tight. He didn't know if there would be threads or not.

Either way, I need to be able to sink down 6.5 feet, unscrew two screws, plug the pipe, and screw the cover back on without an air tank. I know I can make several dives and not have to do it all in one. I am thinking of trying to just use a garden hose to breathe through (like a long snorkel) and trying to rig up some kind of weight to keep me down easier. Maybe I could just have my husband keep me down with the vacuum pole.

No wise cracks, please.....I know I'm asking for it though! :) Any suggestions would be appreciated! I definitely don't want to drain the pool...that would be bad for the liner and a waste of water. And I'd rather not hire somebody if I can manage this on my own, which I think I can.

Thanks,
Sandy

[virangos]

Poconos, Maybe the black winter cover is keeping my ice down. I'm just outside Allentown but really 4" is the most I have measured.

The rubber expandible plug the pool store guy told you about is really a good idea. Imho.
we use them to seal toilet drains and sinks all the time. I doubt your main drain is threaded
so you may not have any other options.

Garden hose snorkel? Hmmmm I would think a few well held breaths
with a few trips to the bottom to install the plug would work better.

[aylad]

Hey Sandy, how's the pond project coming along? I'm really interested in this journey...

Janet

[SandyDittmer]

Hey Sandy, how's the pond project coming along? I'm really interested in this journey...

Janet

Hi Janet,

Sorry to say my journey ended. I researched until I was blue in the face, and despite my willingness to work hard, the money associated with such a huge amount of water was more than I could afford. It would have taken massive pumps and huge biofiltration to keep the water from looking like pea soup. We decided to clean it up (it WAS pea soup, and with goldfish living in it to boot), and maybe get some more use out of it. Maybe the teenagers will come 'round yet.

I should have documented my journey in getting it cleared up. It went from nasty, nasty, to crystal clear in about 1 week flat using only massive amounts of chlorine. It always amazes me. I helped a friend open a pool that had not been opened in 3 years. It had frogs in it, and about 1/4" of sludge on the bottom. In about a week and a half, it was crystal clear. She couldn't believe it!

Anyhow, thanks for asking. I still would love a pond, but I talked with a lot of pond people, and that was just too huge a volume of water to keep clean with the budget I had in mind.

Take care,

Sandy

[aylad]

I'm sorry that it didn't work out, I would like to have seen the finished product. Maybe your teens will turn around, and by the time they're ready to leave, some other avenue will have opened that will allow you to complete it. If you ever do decide to persue it, though, please let us know so we can "watch" it through your posts!!

Janet