Seapool? Nope - C-Pool!

[Spensar]

Read this in another non-pool forum. Person posted about more efficient pool pumps, and I posted links to pool solutions, then this post showed up. Never heard of Seapool, and am wondering about the sanitation of what was posted there?


my dad uses a chemical in his pool called "SEAPOOL". it is a copper-sulfate compound that replaces the use of chlorine in the pool with an exception to one puck a week in the skimmer. the advantage to using SEAPOOL is that it only requires the pump and filter to be run twice a day for 3 hours at a time. so he has it set up on a automatic timmer and as you can guess saved 75% of his electricity bill for the pool. *There is no conversion kit that is required to use this chemical, unlike a saltwater pool.*

[waterbear]

Copper sulfate shows up in many "non chlorine" sanitation systems.

1. It is not an EPA approved residual sanitizer.
2. It is very slow acting and a pool requires a sanitizer with fast kill times.
3. Copper is an efficient algaecide so the water doesn't turn green from algae so one is lead into the false assumption that clear water is sanitized water. It is not.
4. Copper is what turns hair green and stains pool surfaces. Period.
5. Copper sulfate is dirt cheap so companies that sell this garbage make a LOT of money.

[PoolDoc]

You nailed it, Waterbear.

Ben

[waterbear]

You nailed it, Waterbear.

Ben

Aw shucks! :o Thanks! ;)

[Spensar]

I put most of what Waterbear posted as a response in the other forum, and he came back that it was his Dad that used it and he is a senior chemist at BSAF, etc., etc. I invited him to come here to discuss it but still waiting.

[waterbear]

I put most of what Waterbear posted as a response in the other forum, and he came back that it was his Dad that used it and he is a senior chemist at BSAF, etc., etc. I invited him to come here to discuss it but still waiting.

Tell him to tell his dad just to use copper sulfate, since that is the active ingredient and MUCH cheaper. I am sure that being a "senior chemist" he can figure out the dosage needed.:rolleyes:
OH WAIT, he probably does not work in water chemistry at BASF so he really doesn't have a clue except for the one he bought!;)

[Spensar]

Nothing like the smell of a freshly opened can of Spam.

[chem geek]

As noted in that thread (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=127311) on the other forum you are referring to, his arguments to the points waterbear made are ridiculous. He is in Canada so the EPA registration doesn't apply -- but what does that have to do with efficacy of copper sulfate? It doesn't pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 (http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/dis_tss_docs/dis-12.htm) in the U.S. and I write more about kill times in this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/converting-my-ecosmarte-system-to-chlorine-t24194.html#p205939) and I write more about sanitizer and disinfectant registration in Canada below.

He claims it is not slow-acting because copper sulfate is not the only ingredient in this powdered chemical. I cannot find "Seapool" as a brand on the Internet -- if the guy can provide a link to where it is sold, I might be able to dig up an MSDS equivalent -- or he can just read the ingredients on the bottle. Disinfectants and sanitizers ARE regulated in Canada as described in this link (http://www.healthycleaning101.org/english/D+S_pub.html). As seen here (http://pr-rp.pmra-arla.gc.ca/portal/page?_pageid=34,6928,34_6960:34_7232&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&letter=S), Seapool is NOT a registered pesticide product though there are many other algaecide products registered using copper sulphate. There are also registered swimming pool bactericides such as products containing calcium hypochlorite (Cal-Hypo), sodium hypochlorite, trichloro-s-triazinetrione (Trichlor), sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione (Dichlor). See if he can provide you with a Health Canada Pesticide Registration Number.

His response to point #3 is that "copper isn't just used as an algaecide, it is also used as a pH balancer" shows that he doesn't understand chemistry as that is absolutely not true. Copper does not balance pH, period.

In his response to point 4 he says that "in high concentrations copper can turn your hair green", but then says that "in Seapool it the ppm is an ammount close to 10-15 ppm" which would certainly stain since normal copper concentration in a pool to prevent algae is in the 0.3 to 0.7 range and anything higher is certainly going to stain unless the pH is kept very low (7.0 or lower).

Good luck with your arguing with this person.

Richard

[waterbear]

To Quote Forest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does."

[Spensar]

LOL. Good digging Chemgeek. That is actually a very, very good high tech and electronics forum, and is terrific for over the air broadcast reception, with very knowledgable people on those topics similar to the pool know how here... but pool stuff not so much.

I couldn't find Poolsea on the net either. I'll keep your facts in the quiver in case he wants to pursue it further. Right now it is sinking out of site, as that is a high traffic site.

[CarlD]

Ok, Here's the answer:

NOBODY swim in this fool's pool!:eek:

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken

(this is one of my two favorite quotes.)

[PoolDoc]

Your guy apparently has only heard about the product, and not read about it. It's "C-Pool", not "Seapool".

Here are the links:

http://www.debmar.com/pool/faq.html
http://www.c-pool.ca/

The treatment program is just a typical chlorine + copper program:

from the c-pool.ca site:

* Add 3.5g (1/8 oz.) of C-POOL per 4,500 L (1,000 gal.) of pool water (an additional 0.03 ppm) to maintain a minimum reading of 0.5 ppm Copper. This amount will normally be sufficient, depending on water loss from backwashing the filter etc
* Check Copper reading. Use readily available test kits to ensure copper levels are maintained at 0.5 ppm to 1.0 ppm (do not exceed 1.0 pmm copper)
* Add chlorine to achieve an ideal reading of 1.5 ppm. IF using a Brominator or Chlorinator, fill and place on lowest setting
* Check and adjust pH to 7.2( http://www.c-pool.ca/howtouse.html )

Ben

[waterbear]

right off their websites FAQ:
"Is the C-Pool Mineral Treatment safe?
Yes. C-Pool Mineral Treatment is registered by the Canadian Government as a Mineral Algaecide for pools and spas."

Empahsis mine! Not once do they claim it is a sanitizer.

This page (http://www.debmar.com/pool/why.html) is good for laughs. In one sentence they say the 'mineral' in c-pool ( is that short for copper pool or cesspool?) kills algae and in the next say they are essential for plant growth. Last time I checked algae was a plant.

Deja Vu, does anyone remember SimplyBluePools (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=3085)

Check out some of the other products that Debmar sells! Besides buckets of copper sulfate they also sell electromagnets for horses, dogs, and people :eek: and silicone breast enhancers (I think they call them 'falsies'):rolleyes:.

The only "pool product" they sell is c-pool. I think that says it all (along with the falsies!):D


EDIT: Here is the original patent for c-pool. (http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-cipo/cpd/eng/patent/1146707/summary.html#Details)
As you can see it's just a mixture of copper sulfate, alum, soda ash, and salt. It's just an algaecide/floc combo.

This page from the patent (http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-cipo/cpd/eng/patent/1146707/page/1146707_20031111_description.pdf) shows a real lack of chemical understanding of the product, especially when it states near the top of the third page "Salt crystals can be added as a source of chlorine."

I find it interesting that this product is only sold in Canada and not the US (although we do have the similar EZ Pool and Pristine Blue "systems").

[chem geek]

As shown here (http://pr-rp.pmra-arla.gc.ca/portal/page?_pageid=34,6928,34_6960:34_7232&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&letter=C), "C-POOL MINERAL TREATMENT" is registered as a "SWIMMING POOL ALGICIDE", not as a bactericide. Clicking on their registration number link (http://pr-rp.pmra-arla.gc.ca/PR_SOL/pr_web.ve1?p_ukid=1475) (you need to open this saved link as a PDF file) gives their label information where the product has 12.5% copper sulphate pentahydrate (3.125% copper as metallic). There is an explicit "WARNING: Staining of pool surfaces may occur due to deposits of copper salts. Excessive levels of copper will increase the probability of this occurrence."

[waterbear]

If you want to "mix your own" the 4th page of the patent description (http://brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-cipo/cpd/eng/patent/1146707/page/1146707_20031111_description.pdf) gives the formula!

All you need (for every 10k gallons of water) is:
10 oz. of "bluestone" (copper sulfate pentahydrate)
1.5 lbs alum (used as floc in pools for years!)
2 oz. of salt (according to the patent, sodium chloride is a chlorine source because it supplies Cl- ions!:eek: Scary! )
1 lb soda (Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda or some pH up)

(Kids, don't try this at home!):D

[Spensar]

LOL. That's case closed. I read the C-Pool website, and it is pretty reasonable and they are selling it as a supplement algecide and not to replace chlorine. I'll blame the messenger this time, and not the pool stuff company.

[Ohm_Boy]

This thread reminds me of a couple of images I've seen about arguing over the internet... Just sayin'.