First Pool water trouble

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

I hope this is the correct forum. I looked for the metals pool forum and this was the closest I could find. So here goes. I have an above ground easy set pool. This is the first year we've attempted to get it up and going. I filled it with well water. And as of today the stats are as follows according to a 6 way test kit I got from walmart. Hardness--340 ppm, Alkalinity--290 ppm, PH--7.5, CL--5.

The problem I am having is that the water is a brownish, orangish, with slight tinge of green. I know that I have high iron (we have a softener and iron filter on the house) and I know that we have iron bacteria. The pool has been up and running for about one week. I've read how you can use ascorbic acid to remove stains. However, I'm not sure staining is the problem. The water seems clear when I pull it for the tests however I have attempted to brush the bottom and sides and when using the brush it is almost hidden in the three feet of water when at the bottom.
My filter is just a paper filter type that came with the unit and I've replaced it once and it was kind of orange, mainly where the water came in and out.
I was hoping to receive some advice as to what I need to do next. Thanks for your help.

[aylad]

Hi, and welcome to the forum!! You're going to need some metal sequestrant in the pool to keep the iron in solution in the water. Higher chlorine levels and higher pH levels tend to make the metals precipitate out of the water and show up as brown or orange (iron) or green (copper). By adding the metal sequestrant it should stay in solution and allow you to clear up your pool. You may have some staining, but that can be dealt with later. Read the directions on the bottle, but I believe you're supposed to lower the pH to 7.0-7.2 (don't go below 7.0) and add the sequestrant. It may cause your chlorine to drop, so keep an eye on it.

Hopefully Marie will be by shortly to give you further instructions.

Janet

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

Hi Janet. Thanks for the warm welcome and responding to my concern. I have a couple of questions. One is there a certain metal sequestrant you'd recommend or do I need to see what is available in my area? Two, I've since learned that there is a prefilter I can use. Would I be better to drain and refill using a prefilter to help eliminate iron? Three, do I need to have a test kit for metals so I know when they have been removed or will that be obivious via the water quality? If a test kit any reccomendations? Thanks again.

Kris

[aylad]

Hmm..I'm not the metals expert on the forum, but I can tell you what I know....

1. There isn't a particular metal sequestrant that we recommend. Mbar (one of the forum's resident metals experts), says that she has used a variety of them, and that they all work equally as well. Check and see which one is cheaper, because I understand that they can get pricey. You can read through the forum for posts by her, she addresses that question in other posts too.

2. If draining and refilling is a viable option for you, then it is going to be much easier for you to not have to fight the metals in the water for the life of your pool if you can remove at least some of them before they get into the pool. Keeping water balanced is somewhat of a chemical tightrope when metals are involved in the water, and it'll be much easier on you in the long run if you don't have to deal with it. It is also going to require regular additions of metal sequestrant throughout the life of the pool. So....if you can drain/refill without too much of a problem, and filter out at least some of the iron, then I would do so.

3. I'm fairly confident that you'll be aware of the presence of metals by the water quality--when the pH or chlorine get too high and there's not enough sequestrant in the water, it will start to turn brown/orange like it is now. So...there are metals tests out there, but honestly I think once you get this initial startup under control, you won't need one at home. I don't know how much they cost vs. how close you are to a pool store that CAN test for metals, but I would think you'll be ok without buying a special test for it.
We do recommend buying your own test kit that will test for the other water parameters, though--chlorine, pH, alk, stabilizer, calcium (not needed in your pool but nice to know the baseline level). Not only will your results be more accurate than the pool store's (fresh samples, consistent testing methods, etc) but it also doesn't give them the opportunity to try to talk you into buying hundreds of dollars worth of stuff that you don't need. (We'll start with calcium, move onto phosphate remover, and on to .....) ;) The test kit we recommend here is the Taylor K-2006, which can be bought online at http://www.amatoind.com, http://www.spspools-spas.com, or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IXIIG?ie=UTF8&tag=poolbooks&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B0002IXIIG . It's a little more expensive at the Amazon site, but PF gets a donation from them if you get it from that link. I know that the test kits can be a little pricey, but I guarantee you that it will pay for itself tenfold over just this summer alone, and is going to be necessary to give you full control over your pool, especially if you're going to be dealing with a metals issue.

Janet

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

Thanks for the info Janet. Draining and refilling is a possibility I only have a 3200 gallon pool. I will have to drain and refill yearly anyway. It gets cold enough here that keeping it year round would probably not be a good idea. My only question with the prefilter is if would remove clear iron. I've read that a filter can only remove iron once its oxidized. Its possible for the filter to do that, but I'll just have to investigate a little more.
It sounds as if it would be less hassle if I can remove as much as possible beforehand and probably less expensive as well in buying and maintaining the pool with the right chemicals. In the end I could run it through our house water which is conditioned, it just takes forever. I did'nt realize using the raw water would be so problematic.
Is the Taylor K-2006 that much more accurate of a test kit than the similar one I got from Walmart? They seem to test the same things (its a 6 way kit probably hth).
If I decide to use the sequestrant on my water as is, should I use a conditioner/stabilizer to help maintain chlorine? I know you said the sequestrant would probably affect chlorine, I didn't know if stabilizer would help.
What about floccing? I've heard some do this to remove stuff from the water. It sounds good (the idea of removing iron or whatever), but are there drawbacks or reasons its not recommended here.

Thanks again for the information. At least this problem is becoming something that seems a little more manageable as opposed to something that bordered on impossible.

Kris

[sturev]

Kris, I have about the same size pool and I filled from the treated house water and it saved me a ton of money/time/hassle!!! I'm on a well also, with high iron and lots of other 'fun' stuff (sulfur, etc, etc). It only took about 9 hrs to fill with a garden hose, so if it's possible for you, I would HIGHLY recommend it (as long as your house/treated water is indeed better).

I never checked into the prefilter, but from what I've read here, no one has named one that really works (that you can buy). There have been a few 'homemade' filters, but not sure it's worth it in your case (you have a smaller pool and filtered water already).

Yes, the Taylor K-2006 is more accurate for testing high shock levels and overall just a better tool to enable you to take control of your pool!!! There are several differences in the testing and the Taylor is really, really worth it!

If I were you I would forget about the sequestrates & other 'things', and just refill... But, that's just my opinion... :) I'm of the mindset that less is more when it comes to putting stuff in my water!!!

[aylad]

Hi Kris,

As far as the filter removing "clear iron", I don't know the answer to that one--but I will certainly ask Ben (the owner of this forum) to take a look at this thread and I'm sure he can help you out there.

As far as the Taylor test kit, it's a more complete one than the one you got from WalMart. All of the tests with the exception of Chlorine work the same way. However, the chlorine testing is much different...with the WalMart kit, you add 5 drops of reagent to pool sample to achieve a yellow color that you match to a scale reading up to 5 ppm. Many people have a problem with accurately reading the color comparator, and many people need to maintain higher chlorine levels than 5 ppm--in fact, everybody that is shocking the pool needs higher levels than that! It also only measures total chlorine, which is actually a combination between Free chlorine (the amount of chlorine in your pool available to fight stuff in the water) and Combined chlorine (the amount of chlorine that is currently tied up with fighting stuff in your water). Being able to distinguish combined chlorine (CC) is at times very helpful, and at other times a requirement. The Taylor kit works by adding a scoop of powder to the pool sample, making it turn pink. You add drops of reagent until sample is clear, multiplying count x 0.5 to get free chlorine level, then add 5 drops of a second reagent. If it doesn't change color, you know you have 0 CC. If it changes to pink, you add the first reagent drop by drop until it goes clear again, and multiply by 0.5 to get the CC. Going from pink to clear is easier to accurately gauge than comparing shades of yellow for many people, being able to measure CC is important for many situations, but the ultimate advantage in this method is that it gives you accurate testing of chlorine up to 50 ppm.

Regarding stabilizer, yes, you will need to add stabilizer to the water to help protect your chlorine from the sun. We recommend that people target 30-40 ppm, then add about 1/2 the product required, because it's much easier to add more later to increase it than to overshoot it and have to drain/refill,especially after they've gotten a water problem resolved! If you have a skimmer, you can put it in through there where it will go to the filter and sit until dissolved, which can take up to 4-5 days. You can't backwash/clean your filter in that time, though, without washing it out, so another method is to put it in an old tube sock and suspend it in front of a return until it dissolves. No need to test for it for about a week, though, because it takes a long time to dissolve and show up in tests.

I would leave the flocculants alone in your case, because I don't think they'll help. Flocculants are used to make small particles stick together to make bigger particules that the filter can catch or that will sink to the bottom to be vacuumed up. In the case of iron in solution in the water, I don't think this is going to be applicable to you, but again, I'll ask Ben to take a look and offer whatever suggestions he can.

Hope this helps!

Janet

[PoolDoc]

I'm really having a hard time with your question, because I'm not really equipped to give a "here's how you solve your problem" answer. The whole issue of how to get metals out of Intex pools is a stumper -- they are low cost pools, and have really low capacity filter system.

Working out a 'best way' is inevitably going to require 'field testing', AKA trial and error. Ideally, I could spend the next 3 weeks shuttling by private plane between the well-water filled Intex pools having this problem . . . trying different combination till I found something reasonably easy and reasonably priced. Unfortunately, being "independently broke", that's not gonna happen. So, the "trials" and the "errors" will have to be yours, not mine.

Next best thing, I'll tell you what I would try first, if I was you.

Drain your pool, and rinse out the goo.
Refill adding about the label dose of a liquid metal control product. Do NOT overdose. Do NOT repeat the dose.
Add 2x the label dose of polyquat AND keep adding every 2 days.
Adjust your pH to 7.0 - 7.4 using muriatic acid as needed.
Do NOT add any baking soda (alkalinity increaser) or calcium.
Add small doses of borax (1/4 box daily) till you've added 3 boxes
Continue using muriatic acid to keep the pH below 7.4
Add SMALL (1 ppm) doses of PRE-DISSOLVED dichlor to your pool nightly.
Operate your filter 24/7. (Get some extra cartridges before you refill).
Try to avoid having to add lots of water at once.
After the initial dose, only add liquid control product as needed with NEW water additions.
Continue with the polyquat and low dose chlorination, till your filter stops turning really brown.
Switch back to the polyquat and low dose chlorination, any time you have to add more than 1/10 of your pool volume.
Run your filter 24/7 for several days after each water addition.
Ok. That's what I'd try.

I'm next going to start writing an "Iron and Intex" FAQ in which I'll try to explain why that's what I'd try.

Of course, if you have an iron removal system on your household water, filling with THAT water would be far and away the easiest thing.

But, I wouldn't try to clean up the water you've got, unless you're first get a new and larger filter and pump for your pool.

There is one exception. If you turn your pump and filter off overnight, and find that the iron has settled to the bottom, leaving clear water on top, you've got a third option. You can VERY carefully set up your vacuum system --- without disturbing the iron on the bottom --- to vacuum to waste, by siphoning onto the ground. Then you can vacuum most of the iron out. If you go this route, you'll want to fill the pool to flooding first, so you have some water to spare.

Best wishes,

PoolDoc

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

Thanks everyone for your input. It helps put some perspective on my options.
Thanks as well PoolDoc for your best guess as to what I should trial and error. Jet setting to my place is definitely not what I'd expect. It is interesting the number of similar questions you must field. I just wanted to know what I could I try or what someone would recommend who had more experience with pools than I do. I'm good with trial and error. You've more than given me some options. Sincerest thanks. I'll look forward to your faq to figure out all the whys. Understanding that might help as I'm trial and erroring through it all.
Although it would definitely seem filling with conditioned water, no matter how much slower it may be, will definitely be less time consuming than dealing with iron in the water.
Regarding the upgrade of the filter and pump. If I were to consider such a thing, is it worth it for the kind of pool I have and what might you recommend? Just a best guess/opinion. I wouldn't have a clue without somebody giving me one as far as what to get. Thanks for any input you have.

Thanks again,

Kris

[mbar]

Kris, can you please post all of your results so we can learn from your experiences too? It is how we all learn and we can pass on what works! Thanks:)

[CarlD]

The EasySet is the donut, right? Since you must take down the pool every year, it's probably just easier to fill with the iron-free water. Intex filters will handle ordinary conditions, but serious deviations go beyond what they can do. It's your decision but even a decent small pump and filter will probably cost more than the pool itself. Is it worth it? That is your decision.

Been there, done that--I had a 15' donut we used for 3 years.

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

Yes CarlD my pool is a donut, 12' I think.
Well, based on what everyone has said here and my available options. It would seem easiest to empty and refill with conditioned water from my house with no iron, or at least much less. As much as it would probably benefit someone else as I work through the iron problem, I don't really want to invest that time, energy ,and money, since I have other options.
So right now my plan of action is to drain, refill with conditioned water and go from there. Thanks for your help everyone. Who knows I may have more questions about the other process too.
I do have one more question. I began draining it today. It appears that much of the water on the surface is clear. I was wondering why. I did try to vacuum the bottom first as PoolDoc had suggested but got no iron, only some dirt. I was wondering why it appears this way. Anybody have any suggestions. Is it gunk on the pool floor? Settling out of the iron toward the bottom but not on the bottom (so maybe its in the bottom foot or so of water. I've had my pump/filter turned off for a day or so waiting to drain. Anybody that has any info would be appreciated. I'd just like to learn as much as I can in the process.
Thanks all,

Kris

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

One other question. Is there anything I should be aware of when I am filling up the pool and starting over? You don't have to recreate the wheel. If there is a FAQ or something someone could point me to that would be fine. There may not be anything. I just thought it would be worth asking some people who've been around the block once or twice before and keep me from making anymore unnecessary mistakes.

Thanks

Kris

[aylad]

Just wanted to reiterate this from Pooldoc's earlier post..There is one exception. If you turn your pump and filter off overnight, and find that the iron has settled to the bottom, leaving clear water on top, you've got a third option. You can VERY carefully set up your vacuum system --- without disturbing the iron on the bottom --- to vacuum to waste, by siphoning onto the ground. Then you can vacuum most of the iron out. If you go this route, you'll want to fill the pool to flooding first, so you have some water to spare.

IN answer to your last post, just remember that you'll have to make frequent additions of chlorine until you get some stabilizer in the water, because the sun will consume a lot of the chlorine. Let us know how it's going!!

Janet

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

Well, first I'd like to thanks everyone for the information and expertise or at least there experience to help shed light on my situation and give me some ideas as to how to get the most enjoyment out of my pool.
As far as how its going, I'm debating whether or not we will try to set up the pool again this year. We got a late start and our seasons for enjoying it is well over half over. Also with what we've tried already, we've exceeded what we've budgeted for the pool. So with the above two considerations, we are leaning toward starting over next spring with our newfound understanding, thanks to the helpful folks here.
I did try the vacuum process, but I must not have the right type of vacuum because it is only designed to pull debris out of the water not the debris and water which it sounds like the type that is described here and what I would need to vacuum the iron out. What I did just seemed to move it from the bottom and mix it in with the rest of the water. So we drained the pool and will try to clean it out and start over with the process. How I wish I knew what I know now when we started this process. It would have been so much easier.

Thanks again.

Kris

[aylad]

I'm sorry that we couldn't help you get it going for the rest of this season--if you change your mind, we'll certainly be here to help!! But I guess the silver lining in it is that your experience this year will make next year's setup SO much easier and less frustrating for you!! (We'll be here then, too ;) )


Janet

[Upnorthpoolproblem]

No reason to be sorry. You guys definitely helped eliminate my frustration of not knowing what to do and helped make the problem manageable. It's really my fault for starting so late. I assumed a quick and easy setup, and instead it was a headache I hadn't anticipated. You better believe if I need help I'll be back next year. Thanks for everything.

Kris